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Old 11-10-2009, 01:22 PM   #1
Dave H
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Angry Marcellus Shale: An Environmental Disaster In The Making

I'm not sure if forum members are following this story, but it is a huge public health concern for many in New York. To say nothing of the fact that this operation may slag a lot of land and mess up the environment.

Here are two links to great stories:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/..._regulation_of

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/11/10-2

The Democracy Now! video is particularly good and well worth watching.

I figure it's good to stay informed on this matter so that public resistance to the marcellus shale operation can be mounted.

Moderator alert: this is a topic that I find interesting and pertinent. However, the mocking and barbed posts and tones will have to go if the debate will be allowed to develop. It's OK if people believe something that is in direct opposition to what you believe. By sticking to the facts rather than denigrating your opponent or their opinions you will be doing a better job at getting your own POV across. I will eliminate as much of the non-pertinent verbiage as I can.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:38 PM   #2
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China and Cuba will be drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, off our shores. Who do you think will have a lesser environmental impact, them or the people who want to drill here? Yet when is the last time these groups protested them?

New York's as well as the country as a whole is in dire economic straights, we are more dependent on foreign oil than ever, and we wonder why.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:56 PM   #3
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What about the guy in Candor New York who's well water is now flammable because of the well that was drilled near his house?
or people whose well water turned black?
Those are facts, not opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qam1 View Post
China and Cuba will be drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, off our shores. Who do you think will have a lesser environmental impact, them or the people who want to drill here? Yet when is the last time these groups protested them?
Yeah, we should look to China and Cuba for our example. In fact, lets model all our legal and governmental policies on their system. We can just say "well, that's what they do in China and Cuba."

Actually, there are many many environmental groups protesting Chinese environmental policy, particularly their use of the dirtiest kind of coal power plants. I seem to recall quite a bit of protests happening around the time of the olympics.

And you can bet that any drilling in American waters will under American jurisdiction and subject to federal regulation.


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Originally Posted by qam1 View Post
New York's as well as the country as a whole is in dire economic straights, we are more dependent on foreign oil than ever, and we wonder why.
No, we pretty much know why. Too much oil consumption, not enough supply. and supply is going to peak soon and go down, not up. And if you think a the little scraps of natural gas here, or in Alaska, or in the Canadian tar sands, or any other place, will save us, you're wrong. those are all drops in a very big bucket, and the bucket has a big hole in it.

As for economic arguments, I sure hope the economic benefit will buy chemotherapy for the poor suckers who get poisoned by whatever the hell they're injecting into the ground water (which, by the way, they aren't legally required to disclose, and which isn't really regulated by anyone, so it's a complete mystery)

By the way, last time we tried to discuss a controversial environmental topic the thread was locked. I certainly hope that won't happen again.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:21 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qam1 View Post
China and Cuba will be drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, off our shores. Who do you think will have a lesser environmental impact, them or the people who want to drill here? Yet when is the last time these groups protested them?

New York's as well as the country as a whole is in dire economic straights, we are more dependent on foreign oil than ever, and we wonder why.
Wow. Okay... Rumor control in 3, 2, 1...

Qam1, you understand the difference between natural gas and oil right? As I understand it, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with reliance on foreign oil. It has nothing to do with oil at all, in fact.

Similarly, 'these groups' of 'radical leftists' report environmentally related news pretty consistently irrespective of what nation the news originates from.

Leaving that aside, your logic seems to go like this: "China and Cuba are gonna slag the planet, so we may as well slag it too. At least we'll have jobs."

However, you are right that the economic situation in New York is dire. What you seem to be having difficulty realizing is that this dire economy is precisely what is leaving it open to environmental exploitation. These kinds of mining operations don't get considered in a healthy economy, but now the corporados get to make themselves rich by exploiting the local population in the name of 'job creation'. What good is a job that wrecks your health anyway?
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:23 PM   #5
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Interesting and very pertinant subject.

If the discussion remains civil it may very well run 100 posts.

On the other hand, if it degenerates, well.....

It's up to you good people.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:37 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by hobbitling View Post
By the way, last time we tried to discuss a controversial environmental topic the thread was locked. I certainly hope that won't happen again.
Hi Hobbitling. I take your point, but I wonder what's cnotroversial about this? I have to admit I wasn't expecting responses like qam1's.

Seems pretty straight forward: some big corporations want to use terrible methods to extract a very profitable natural resource at severe costs to the public's health and the environment. They don't care who or what gets hurt as long as they make a buck.

Am I missing something?
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H
Seems pretty straight forward: some big corporations want to use terrible methods to extract a very profitable natural resource at severe costs to the public's health and the environment. They don't care who or what gets hurt as long as they make a buck.

Am I missing something?
What your post tells me is

1) There is no intellectually logical arguments against this project.

Logical arguments do not contain hyperbole, conjecture and/or slander. When you can only invoke extreme emotional arguments to support your position that pretty much gives away that there is no other basis but raw emotion.

2) And that emotion, like much of what the environmental movement is based on is clearly more about stopping capitalism then it about saving the environment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H
Qam1, you understand the difference between natural gas and oil right? As I understand it, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with reliance on foreign oil. It has nothing to do with oil at all, in fact.
Natural gas competes with oil for a variety of things like Home heating, backup generation for wind and solar plants and even vehicle fuels.

The more sources/bigger supply of natural gas, the more applications will use it instead of petroleum products.

Being that Natural gas burns much cleaner then oil, that should be a good thing according to the environmentalist, again that’s if it were actually about saving the environment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H
Leaving that aside, your logic seems to go like this: "China and Cuba are gonna slag the planet, so we may as well slag it too. At least we'll have jobs."
Nope,

My point is energy, like that found in the gasoline you use to drive thousands of miles back and forth to the Adirondacks every year has to come from somewhere.

If we are not drilling here, then we must import that energy from somewhere and much of the time that somewhere is in countries whose environmental regulations are lax to say the least.

Plus, if there isn't cheap energy available here, businesses will move to where it is.

So all you end up doing is preventing trivial to minimal environmental damage here, while contributing to major environmental damage elsewhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H
However, you are right that the economic situation in New York is dire. What you seem to be having difficulty realizing is that this dire economy is precisely what is leaving it open to environmental exploitation. These kinds of mining operations don't get considered in a healthy economy, but now the corporados get to make themselves rich by exploiting the local population in the name of 'job creation'. What good is a job that wrecks your health anyway?

Sorry I prefer a more local source (which I didn’t seem to find in your links that supposedly reports “ALL” environmental news)

From Bradford County Pennsylvania, where production from the Marcellus Shale began in earnest in 2008 see

Boomtowns: Gas drilling quickly changes smalltown life in Central Pa.

They don’t sound like people who being exploited to me


Also see http://www.bestplaces.net/city/Towan...sylvania.aspx#

Towanda’s (Bradford County’s seat) Air quality, water quality and superfund rankings are all much better than the country's average.

So much for the idea that these evil corporations are coming in and raping and polluting the area with little regard for the people and environment.


And one more link to a reasonable editorial from another source:
New York State: drill, baby, drill!
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:26 AM   #8
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NEW YORK STATE:drill,baby,drill!- is temporary out of service when I connect to that link.
ty for informative info. you present on a sensitive subject. Looncry
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ”hobbitling”
Facts have no political ideology. Did you actually listen to the segment or read the article before criticizing the facts they state? Kind of hard to debate statements you refuse to listen too.
Yes I did, there are few facts in any of them, it’s mostly typical environmentalist scare tactics.

You can tell it’s a bunch of propaganda because when ever they talk of environmental damage they show pictures of the Adirondacks which this is no where near where any this drilling will be. Much of Western New York is pretty flat and ugly, so it won’t have the emotional appeal they are trying for so they have try and mislead viewers by showing the Adirondacks. They aren’t drilling at Marcy Dam or Whiteface. That’s not exactly the tactics someone with facts on their side resorts to.

But their argument, that because there were a few unrelated environmental problems in some locations the past, therefore we shouldn’t drill anywhere is a flawed one.

That’s like saying because one time someone left garbage at a lean-to we should never build another one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”hobbitling”
Like the guy in Candor New York who's well water is now flammable because of the well that was drilled near his house? or people whose well water turned black?
Those are facts, not opinions.
We don’t know if they are facts or not, there’s nothing substantiating any of these claims.

But what are facts is if you look up Candor, New York

http://www.bestplaces.net/city/Candor-New_York.aspx#

(Click “Health”)

Their Air Quality, Water Quality and Super fund rankings are all much better than the average of the whole country.

In fact, Candor's water quality is better then that of Keene’s here in the Adirondacks!!!!!!!! So you are better off drinking water from Cador than the “pristine” waters of the Adirondacks. (Air quality and Super fund rankings are also the same as Keene)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ”hobbitling”
No, we pretty much know why. Too much oil consumption, not enough supply. and supply is going to peak soon and go down, not up. And if you think a the little scraps of natural gas here, or in Alaska, or in the Canadian tar sands, or any other place, will save us, you're wrong.
The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. -- Paul Ehrlich - The Population Bomb (1968)

“By the year 2000...the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America and Australia, will be in famine,” Peter Gunter, North Texas State University, The Living Wilderness, Spring 1970.

Under the greenhouse effect, extreme weather increases. Depending on where you are in terms of the hydrological cycle, you get more of whatever you’re prone to get. New York can get droughts, the droughts can get more severe and you’ll have signs in restaurants saying “Water by request only.” - James Hansen 1988


I have dozens of more

Every environmental / we are running out of xxx resource prediction has without exception failed to come true,

With that track record of consistent failure there’s no reason to believe the peak oil ones are any different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ”hobbitling”
those are all drops in a very big bucket, and the bucket has a big hole in it.
60 Years of natural gas which is estimated to be in the Marcellus Shale is more than a “drop”


Quote:
Originally Posted by ”hobbitling”
As for economic arguments, I sure hope the economic benefit will buy chemotherapy for the poor suckers who get poisoned by whatever the hell they're injecting into the ground water
An emotional argument not back up by facts. See the Air, Water, Superfund rankings above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”hobbitling”
(which, by the way, they aren't legally required to disclose, and which isn't really regulated by anyone, so it's a complete mystery)
This simply is not correct.

In the link in the OP, how would they know there’s Radon if it’s a “complete mystery” and they don’t have to “legally disclose” their findings?

See also http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...qO1ScUnguB1AlM

Paterson's report shoots down alarmist green claims that drilling in the watershed puts the city's water supply at risk. Instead it insists on sensible environmental regulations specifically tailored to hydraulic fracturing drilling -- such as extensive testing of water wells near drilling sites, disclosure of which chemicals are used to extract gas buried deep underground and strict plans for wastewater disposal.

It also demands that extra care be taken for drilling in the watershed and establishes buffer zones around its reservoirs and aqueducts. Reasonable enough. In all, the Paterson review shows that energy production and environmental protection need not be mutually exclusive.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:30 AM   #10
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http://geology.com/articles/marcellus-shale.shtml

Once upon a time I remember following my geologist father over PA..there was so much oil drilling back then but it was already on the decline.

Its amazing how effective fear is as a marketing tool.. Not only for environmental concerns but in our daily life. We buy many things to prevent bad things from happening to us.

Political arguments IMO are always rooted in fear.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:50 AM   #11
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Oftentimes in these internet debates each side has a pre-determined spin or take on things and goes and digs up the references that jive with their spin, adds some more spin, takes a jab at their opponent and somehow that is supposed to solve something.


Read my note appended to the first post.
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:47 PM   #12
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As long as they're careful and don't drill near water sources I'm all for it. Hopefully they will learn from these few mistakes. Our area here needs an economic boost with all the manufacturing jobs lost in the last year. Put some money in people's pockets and they will spend it. If they approach me about my land I will join one of the public groups around here that have been approached and learn all the facts so I can make an informed decision. I don't think this will end up being an environmental concern. There is probably much, much more damage done to the environment just by people spilling gas when they fill up their tanks than this will ever produce. I say go for it without delay until alternative energies can be smartly developed rather than shoving cap and trade down our throats when those alternatives are not feasible yet. We need a transition and it seems like this is it.
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:06 PM   #13
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Does anyone know the amount of $$$$ that are paid to the landowners for the mineral rights/drilling contract?
Even small landowners are eligible for a piece of the pie.
The drilling companies take a"section", say a hundred acres, then divide the royalties by the acre, so the more acres you own in a section, the larger your cut.

But with hydro fracturing I wonder about the water well problems for small towns and rural folks and farms.
On November 30 Cornell Cooperative Extension is running symposium in Owego.
See ya there....
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Old 11-16-2009, 04:56 PM   #14
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My family and I own land in Tioga county Penna are being offered 1500/acre for a 5 year lease with 15% payment for royalties if gas is found. Lease payments in the past have ranged anywhere from $25 to $4,000 an acre depending on when you signed and what the economy was doing. Supposedly, lease payments will not rise much above the 1500/acre level but who knows. When we were approached several years, we were being offered a couple of hundred dollars an acre and passed on the deal. It appears that the gas company has signed or is in the process of signing all of our neighbors. They live up there year round. For most people living in the area, the money is hard to resist. Our one neighbor owns 250 acres. Thats $375,000 in a poor county. We only own 10 acres (owned the land for over 30 years) and its our vacation retreat so its a little easier for us to say no but if everyone else signs there is going to be activity in the area. We have not made a decision but think we can use the money to help pay our bills on the property and help with upkeep; for example we need a new roof on our cabin. Its can easy to make judgements and criticise those signing leases but if you spend anytime in Tioga county, you can see how many people are living paycheck to paycheck and struggling to get by.
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Old 11-16-2009, 05:02 PM   #15
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BTW, Tioga county economy is being helped by all of this. Around Mansfield PA, all the motels are booked and restaurants are busy. All with people associated with the gas deals and drilling. My nephew and his girlfirend graduate from Mansfield University in May. Her parents cannot find a motel room anywhere to come up the night before graduation.
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:29 PM   #16
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In another life I worked as the production/operations manager for a good sized independent oil producer. We operated about 425 wells, and during my time there, drilled 100 + wells, of which about 35 were hydraulically fractured. This is intended to give a simplified backdrop to evaluate the cited article. You can decide for yourself if there is anything hysterical about it.

A little geology is necessary to understand some of the process. Generally, an oil producer is looking for an underground structure to form a trap to collect oil or gas underground. Visualize a producing stratum as an undulating layer of rock underground. There are a number of different types of traps, but basically you are looking for a place where the particular underground stratum or strata creates a place for oil or gas to collect, within the rock itself. Bear in mind we are talking about processes that occurred over geologic time, hundreds of millions of years. One type is an anticline, where the stratum forms an underground hill. Seismic analysis can locate some traps, but precise mapping is usually done by well logging, running various instruments down a wellbore to take readings. There are many different types of instruments used, but one of the first and frequently used for mapping structures is a natural gamma ray tool. These are instruments that are run down along the well on a cable and take various measurements of the sides of the wellbore. All strata/soils have some degree of natural radioactivity. Shales, because of their chemical composition are more radioactive than most productive strata, which are generally limestone/dolomite or sandstones. Shales are relatively impermeable, so they tend to create an impermeable cap over most structures. Basically, the gamma ray log will produce a graphical output strip of radioactivity vs depth and because the shales create spikes on the graph, you can use them as geologic “markers,” and map and determine the depth to a particular horizon from well to well, sometimes over hundreds of miles, and see where they rise and fall, forming hills and valleys. The radiation they are talking about is actually the naturally occurring radiation in some of the elements that have a small percentage of radioisotopes that compose the clays that compose the shales.

The second thing a geologist looks for in a productive stratum, besides the presence of hydrocarbons, is the porosity and the permeability of the material. There is no “pool” down there. The oil or gas exists within the pore space within the rock. Look at a piece of chalk or limestone, they are probably about 3-6% porous, the hydrocarbons are located within those miniscule pores. Once you find porosity, a place for fluid to collect within the rock, you then have to see if it is permeable, or just how well those pore spaces are connected up, to allow the gas or fluid to flow through the rock. Shales are much less porous and much less permeable, probably by an order of magnitude, but I do not have any hard numbers to quantify how much as there was no shale production where I worked. The oil and gas are under pressure, sometimes considerable. There are several mechanisms that move oil and gas thru the rock. One is called solution gas drive, much like letting the fizz out of a bottled drink, the wellbore allows the gas to expand, driving it to the well. Usually oil and gas exist with brine, generally many times more saline than seawater. The oil and gas generally separate to some degree to the top of the structure. The brine, despite being a fluid can be compressible slightly, and the expansion of the brine when a well is drilled at the top of the structure can also drive the oil and gas to a wellbore. It can be a combination of both. Produced brines in an oilfield are disposed of re-injecting into disposal wells or into other areas of the producing formation, thousands of feet below any potable water.

When we drilled a well, we were required to “case” the well. The well would be started with a “native” drilling mud, that is fresh water and the fine particulates ground up in the drilling process. The mud is pumped down through the drill pipe and bit and circulated back up the outside to the surface, cooling the bit and carrying with it the drill cuttings which were allowed to settle out in pits or tanks. The mud was continuously re-circulated. We were required to drill down, several hundred feet, to well below any strata known to have potable water. We would then set the surface casing, usually, in our area, 8-5/8” pipe, within a 13-14 inch well bore. The pipe would then be cemented in place, by pumping cement down the inside of the pipe, until it circulated clean cement up to the surface. This was usually plain Portland cement, no aggregate, basically a grout. It sets within seconds once it stops moving. It is given time to cure and develop strength. The purpose of the surface casing is to isolate each of the strata and to protect any fresh water bearing strata. Then a smaller bit would go back into the well, inside the casing, out the bottom, and the well would be drilled to its final depth. This drilling is done with native mud until they get near the producing zone, when they “mud up,” adding generally natural materials such as corn starch and bentonite ( a kind of clay) to increase the viscosity of the mud and to help it carry the drill cuttings from that depth. If they are in an area where the formation pressure is substantial, then “weighting” compounds are added to the mud, generally materials like ground walnut shells or barite (a natural, but heavy, material), to add to the weight of the column of fluid to counteract/balance the formation pressure. Mechanical blow out preventers are installed where needed to give them the capability to seal off the well bore at the surface. Once at total depth, the wells would then be “logged.” There might be intermediate casing strings that could be needed depending on the depth of the well and the conditions, but generally, the “production” casing would then be set and similarly cemented, to several hundred feet above any producing strata. Generally, the next step is to locate the productive zones within a well and then to perforate those sections of the casing. This is done by wireline tools which carry an array of small explosive "shaped" charges that cut a hole, about 3/8” in diameter, through the casing, the cement and into the producing formation, probably to about 20” or so in depth. A better explanation of logging, tools and perforation process could probably be found at the Schlumberger website, they are probably the leader in this field.

Hydraulic fracturing is used to compensate for low permeability of the rock and to thereby increase production. Basically, the object is to create a vertical fracture (picture a knife blade) through the producing rock and propping it open, exposing the face of the producing rock to what will become a high permeability channel, allowing more face of the rock to drain to the crack and then to the wellbore. The rock will fracture along the plane of the rocks least compressive strength. In a well deeper than 2500 feet, the overburden, the weight of the soil and strata above the producing zone, will prevent a horizontal fracture. There is considerable engineering that goes into designing a “frac job.” There are other ways of doing it, some techniques involve using nitrogen-based foams instead of gelled water because they clean up easier.

The process involves pumping a fluid into the well, through the perforations and into the formation at enough pressure to generate a fracture in the rock, followed by a tapered mixture of “proppant” generally sand, but in exotic wells involving extreme depths, pressures and temperatures, might be small spheres of sintered bauxite or other materials. The height of the fracture is regarded as being a function of the rate the fluid is pumped into the well. The overall length is determine by the amount of fluid, but is also influenced by the rock properties and how fast the fluid pressure bleeds off into the rock face. The fluid we used was water gelled with guar gum, the same stuff we use to thicken salad dressings. There are catalysts that cause it to “crosslink” and become about the consistency of the green Slime we used to play with as kids. The initial 20-30% of the fluid is pumped into the well as a “pad,” just gel, to initially generate the crack, this is followed as a continuous process, by adding proppant to the gel, e.g.,1# per gallon, for so many gallons of gel, then 2# per gallon, on up, starting with a fine sand and then usually shifting to a coarser sand. The sand we used was called Brady sand, SiO2, like beach sand, but each grain was almost spherical. The sand would carry down the crack until the gel bled off into the face of the rock, the fracture would stop growing and the sand would be packed, propping the crack apart enough to create a high permeability channel. There are chemicals added to reverse the gel and the fluid is eventually swabbed back out of the well. Then the production equipment is then installed, usually through a third string of pipe, typically 2-3/8” steel tubing to bring the production to the surface.

Well density and spacing, or the acreage for each drilling unit, and the pattern for drilling, is usually set by whatever regulatory body is involved, based upon the nature of the producing zone and intended to efficiently drain the reservoir. Oil wells can be spaced as close as 5-10-20-40 acres where I worked. Gas wells are generally spaced less densely, one well each160-320-640 acres is common. A “section” is a square mile, 640 acres. Operating companies will “pool” acreage from several owners, to form a drilling unit, but may also be constrained by what acreage they can include in a unit by the pattern established by the spacing rules. The owners of the acreage usually agree to share their interest in the production in the proportion to their acreage in the unit, but this can be a subject of negotiation.

I’d be curious to know the circumstances of a drilling rig burning down, that is generally avoidable by good engineering and pressure control practices. I’d be surprised to hear about a blowout in shale production, because if you had the kind of pressures and flow rates required for a blow out, you would not need to fracture a well. On the other hand, if the rig was a workover rig, repairing an already producing well, and they weren’t careful controlling the pressures, I could see a rig fire. The difference between the kinds of rigs is not always appreciated by someone not in the business. Having flammable water from a drinking water well caused by a gas well doesn’t make much sense, I’d start looking for a nearby gas station with leaking tanks first. There would be about a mile of vertical separation in addition to the cementing. I’d like to know the dates of the anecdotal stories because while there are historical accounts from the earliest days of drilling, a century ago and longer, where wells were allowed to leak and overflow into streams, when there were no environmental concerns and fires burned on the surface, but there is absolutely no reason for it today.
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:48 PM   #17
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Thanks for the drilling information.
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Old 11-16-2009, 11:05 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by chairrock View Post
Does anyone know the amount of $$$$ that are paid to the landowners for the mineral rights/drilling contract?
Even small landowners are eligible for a piece of the pie.
The drilling companies take a"section", say a hundred acres, then divide the royalties by the acre, so the more acres you own in a section, the larger your cut.

But with hydro fracturing I wonder about the water well problems for small towns and rural folks and farms.
On November 30 Cornell Cooperative Extension is running symposium in Owego.
See ya there....
I know of one group of landowners here near Binghamton that are close to signing a deal at $5,500 an acre with 20% royalties.
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Old 11-16-2009, 11:12 PM   #19
rollinslover64
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Paradox6, thanks for the drilling information! I'm currently taking a geology class so I can understand some of what you are saying. I work for a water treatment company and deliver many products to drillers but did not know the drilling practices. Seems like there are similarities in drilling water wells and gas or oil wells, but drilling for oil or gas sounds a little more complex. Again your info is informative and appreciated.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:51 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Paradox6 View Post
...Having flammable water from a drinking water well caused by a gas well doesn’t make much sense, I’d start looking for a nearby gas station with leaking tanks first. There would be about a mile of vertical separation in addition to the cementing. I’d like to know the dates of the anecdotal stories because while there are historical accounts from the earliest days of drilling, a century ago and longer, where wells were allowed to leak and overflow into streams, when there were no environmental concerns and fires burned on the surface, but there is absolutely no reason for it today.
From Candor, NY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtgvwllNpg

I am not saying what caused it to happen - just pointing out the video.
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