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Old 02-23-2017, 12:35 PM   #41
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Hey not my claim. I'm quoting your own State University. I guess they'd be some kind of authority. Here's the quote:

"Coyotes can be a significant problem to individual sheep-raisers and may occasionally kill young calves. Those who raise livestock should recognize that coyotes are a potential hazard and use guard dogs, fencing, pasture management and other practices that minimize opportunities for coyote depredation. Farmers who suffer loss or damage to livestock or pets are permitted to eliminate the “nuisance” coyotes. Uncontrolled domestic dogs are a much greater threat, responsible for losses to livestock far exceeding losses from coyotes."


And here's the link:

http://www.esf.edu/pubprog/brochure/coyote/coyote.htm
NY doesn't have a single state university in the traditional sense. It has a group of colleges and universities that are collectively part of the SUNY (State University of NY) network.

I can see what the text says on the website you referenced. Do you have links to the studies or raw data that prove this statement? Since the author is a professor, I'd expect there to be some underlying source or study to back up what he is saying.

That aside, this professor does seem to acknowledge that coyotes "can be a significant problem to individual sheep-raisers and may occasionally kill young calves," which is similar to what I've been saying from the beginning.
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:12 PM   #42
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An interesting conversation.
But we all know that coyotes predate on wild or domestic livestock, when the opportunity arises.
Jim
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:40 PM   #43
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"But this notion held by some posters here that you can just put out an LGD or two, build your fence and not have to worry about predator issues is just plain naive."

I'm the naïve one? You're making a fool of yourself.

I have actually raised sheep for 30 years. What have you done? My in laws were huge cattle drovers and producers. None of us lost livestock to a coyote attack. My in laws had trouble with domestics dogs running cattle. All we did with sheep was provide a safe area during lambing (that's a fence BTW)

I did an online search of coyotes preying on livestock in New York State and found nothing. In fact SUNY Department of Environmental Science states free ranging domestic dogs are a far bigger problem.

Here's one from NY State you should read:

http://www.newyorkupstate.com/outdoo...iled_hawk.html

Hunting might be a "management tool" as you claim but it sure isn't a very effective one. More gobbledegook from those who feel a need to justify killing coyotes.

Here's the best management tool....Leave them alone!
Cattle Drovers??? In NY State???
Sorry!
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Old 02-23-2017, 06:37 PM   #44
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Ontario, lots of them. They are wholesale buyers and sellers of livestock. Many years ago cattle were driven to market in a traditional sense, on foot, horse etc. Today they are transported by truck, rail etc.. Most small local sales barns are gone now. Livestock are shipped to sales in bigger centres or sold directly to packers.
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Old 02-24-2017, 04:49 PM   #45
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Ontario, lots of them. They are wholesale buyers and sellers of livestock. Many years ago cattle were driven to market in a traditional sense, on foot, horse etc. Today they are transported by truck, rail etc.. Most small local sales barns are gone now. Livestock are shipped to sales in bigger centres or sold directly to packers.
I would hardly call modern buyers and sellers of livestock "Drovers".
The term brings memories of the long ago cattle drives when ranchers herded their cattle to market in western Canada and the US.
Ontario could not compete with the western provinces in beef cattle production due to the topography.
Ontario, for the most part is a dairy industry.
New Liskiard is a point that i would make. There's a huge statue of a dairy cow on the roadside when you approach from the south.
Jim

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Old 02-24-2017, 06:35 PM   #46
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It would be grand to go out tonight and hear a coyote wail.
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Old 02-25-2017, 08:56 AM   #47
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It would be grand to go out tonight and hear a coyote wail.
Come to the North Hudson road some night in the early fall. Lots of them
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Old 02-26-2017, 03:28 PM   #48
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I would hardly call modern buyers and sellers of livestock "Drovers".
The term brings memories of the long ago cattle drives when ranchers herded their cattle to market in western Canada and the US.
Ontario could not compete with the western provinces in beef cattle production due to the topography.
Ontario, for the most part is a dairy industry.
New Liskiard is a point that i would make. There's a huge statue of a dairy cow on the roadside when you approach from the south.
Jim
Sit down Jimmy and I'll give you another lesson.

First I stated "my in laws were huge cattle drovers." Although you still hear the term today it would be less than 20 years ago. Long gone are the days when a man(Drover) could travel country roads with his cattle truck buying a few cattle off farmers, taking them to sale and making a reasonable return. Like any other industry its all about smaller margins and volume.

Agriculture in Ontario derives much of its nomenclature from the British Isles. In England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland the term "Drover" was synonymous with livestock dealer. The term predates cattle "drives" in the Western US by centuries. My in laws were Drovers in Ireland for generations before coming to Canada. They were the middlemen, wholesalers and speculators between farmers and market, meatpacker.

Ontario is 1st in sheep. 2nd in beef and dairy so I'd hardly call it dairy country. Most of Ontario is Boreal Forest or Canadian Shield. An agricultural wasteland. New Liskeard is in a pocket of fertile soil called the Clay Belt which is surrounded on all sides by Boreal Forests.
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Old 02-26-2017, 04:27 PM   #49
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Sit down Jimmy and I'll give you another lesson.

First I stated "my in laws were huge cattle drovers." Although you still hear the term today it would be less than 20 years ago. Long gone are the days when a man(Drover) could travel country roads with his cattle truck buying a few cattle off farmers, taking them to sale and making a reasonable return. Like any other industry its all about smaller margins and volume.

Agriculture in Ontario derives much of its nomenclature from the British Isles. In England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland the term "Drover" was synonymous with livestock dealer. The term predates cattle "drives" in the Western US by centuries. My in laws were Drovers in Ireland for generations before coming to Canada. They were the middlemen, wholesalers and speculators between farmers and market, meatpacker.

Ontario is 1st in sheep. 2nd in beef and dairy so I'd hardly call it dairy country. Most of Ontario is Boreal Forest or Canadian Shield. An agricultural wasteland. New Liskeard is in a pocket of fertile soil called the Clay Belt which is surrounded on all sides by Boreal Forests.
Thanks for the British history lesson and the lesson in Ontario topography.
I never cease to be amazed by the minutia some folks present.
How did this thread about coyotes translate into a conversation about cattle "droving" in the British Isles???
Jim

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Old 02-26-2017, 09:39 PM   #50
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It would be grand to go out tonight and hear a coyote wail.
Usually about 3am around my place. But not every night.
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:54 PM   #51
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Usually about 3am around my place. But not every night.
Buck,
i don't think that there's a state in the US that doesn't have a coyote population.
I kinda like hearing them.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:30 AM   #52
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Buck,
i don't think that there's a state in the US that doesn't have a coyote population.
I kinda like hearing them.
Jim
We had two of them around for much of the fall and winter. One is a short, stubby critter with a wounded front leg that I saw a few times during deer season. The other is very healthy. We haven't heard them in a few weeks but I did hear a shot one night just after dark.

The contest that inspired the start of this threat resulted in a record 85 coyotes being harvested.

Meanwhile, over in Vermont...
https://www.facebook.com/Vermontcoyo...MELINE&fref=nf
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Old 03-16-2017, 12:18 PM   #53
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We had two of them around for much of the fall and winter. One is a short, stubby critter with a wounded front leg that I saw a few times during deer season. The other is very healthy. We haven't heard them in a few weeks but I did hear a shot one night just after dark.

The contest that inspired the start of this threat resulted in a record 85 coyotes being harvested.
I doubt that anyone is keeping an official count, but I'm sure that individual callers and hound hunters have collectively taken many times that amount in their personal, non-competition hunting. The only difference between these competitions and the coyote hunting that has been going on for decades, is that the competitions offer prizes based on the coyote's weight.


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Doesn't surprise me. I doubt most of these groups, if any, really understand what kind of work and skill is involved in coyote hunting (with calls or with dogs) but yet they are ready to condemn it from afar.

Also, the conflicting justifications they offer for why coyote hunting should be stopped never ceases to amaze me:
On the one hand, they say that coyote numbers can't be controlled through traditional hunting and trapping (which is partially true, though it's a very nuanced conversation). Ergo, there should be no reason to hunt them.
Yet, on the other hand, they say coyotes play a vital role in controlling smaller game and rodents which can spread disease if overpopulated (which is also true); hunting them will thus destroy the ecosystem's natural balance.

So which is it? The hunting should be stopped because its pointless and ineffective? Or is it that we are culling too many of them and are causing damage to the ecosystem?

The fact (which they refuse to acknowledge), is that the coyote population is thriving here in the northeast (and pretty much everywhere where wolves aren't). And so long as that is the case, they should be open to hunting and trapping.
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Old 03-16-2017, 01:29 PM   #54
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So which is it? The hunting should be stopped because its pointless and ineffective? Or is it that we are culling too many of them and are causing damage to the ecosystem?

The fact (which they refuse to acknowledge), is that the coyote population is thriving here in the northeast (and pretty much everywhere where wolves aren't). And so long as that is the case, they should be open to hunting and trapping.
I have no problem with hunting and trapping coyotes, or the contests for that matter. I also agree they're not going away. The most recent article I read was about another study, which this time said even if you eliminate them entirely from a given area they will eventually return if there is a food source. I think it was in either QDM's mag or Deer & Deer Hunting.
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Old 03-16-2017, 02:38 PM   #55
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Doesn't surprise me. I doubt most of these groups, if any, really understand what kind of work and skill is involved in coyote hunting (with calls or with dogs) but yet they are ready to condemn it from afar.
So in your way of thinking if only someone who thought it wrong would only appreciate the work and skill involved and hang out with a bunch of coyote hunters they'd see their error.

BTW not much work or skill. Maybe responsibility making shots not above your skill level so you don't get what the half-wits call "spinners" and "helicopter dogs".
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:56 PM   #56
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So in your way of thinking if only someone who thought it wrong would only appreciate the work and skill involved and hang out with a bunch of coyote hunters they'd see their error.

BTW not much work or skill. Maybe responsibility making shots not above your skill level so you don't get what the half-wits call "spinners" and "helicopter dogs".
The #1 criticism that I hear leveled against predator hunters by anti-hunting groups is that these men and women are killers or blood-sport fanatics, not hunters. I'm not sure how many of these critics have hunted coyotes, or hunted at all, to even be qualified to make such a statement.

Gman, you may not like it, but it is hunting in every sense of the word. If you ever feel like putting your money where your mouth is, I'd be more than willing to have you out for a hunt and you can see for yourself what kind of work and skill is involved....fyi, the killing shot is often the least difficult aspect of predator hunting. The setup, preparation and training is what defines a successful predator hunter.
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:11 PM   #57
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I bet I've shot far more coyotes than you will ever shoot. So thanks for the invite but I doubt there is anything you can teach me.
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:42 PM   #58
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I bet I've shot far more coyotes than you will ever shoot. So thanks for the invite but I doubt there is anything you can teach me.
Well then I'm puzzled as to why you'd say that there isn't much work or skill involved. Unless all the coyotes in your area got the 'dumb' gene or just haven't been educated enough by local hunters...

In my area, the coyotes know very well what us hunters are trying to do, and because of that hunting them, especially during the daytime, is very difficult. It's gotten to the point where calling during the day has very limited effectiveness. So hunters either hunt them at night or hunt with dogs. I'll wager that I've burned more calories on hound hunts than what the average person burns while hunting for deer. It can be very demanding at times, and if you don't know what you're doing, or the dogs aren't well-trained, the coyotes will run circles around you for hours before escaping into an off-limits block of woods or property. Heck, there are many times when we have all our ducks in a row and the coyote still gets the upper hand on us.

Hhmmm...maybe you need to invite me up to your neck of the woods so I can experience for myself some easy coyote hunts.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:00 AM   #59
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"I think what divides people's opinions on wildlife issues, especially as it relates to predators, is where they live and what they experience on a daily basis. Someone herding sheep in eastern Washington or monitoring elk numbers in the Yellowstone ecosystem is going to have a very different perspective on predator management than say someone reading ADK magazine or watching a Nat Geo special from the comfort of their suburban home. That's why it's important for people to step outside themselves from time to time and try to analyze issues from other perspectives. "

I think this comment holds much truth, yet admit that it is a generalization and it doesn't just apply to predators. I'm amused that someone thinks that coyotes are going to put a dent in the rodent population. IMO they have about as much chance of doing that as hunters have at eradicating coyotes.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:00 AM   #60
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http://www.inquisitr.com/1756135/coy...urban-rampage/

http://www.asmainegoes.com/content/c...-unarmed-woman

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33509516/n...canadian-park/
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