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Old 12-12-2007, 01:36 PM   #61
Bill I.
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Please bear in mind that the "regulations" you see on commercially printed maps and publications are interpretations, not the actual regs. When in doubt, all of the state's regulations for the use of state land are conveniently listed on their website.

This is what they have to say about lean-tos:

Quote:
§190.6 Open camps
a. Open camps (lean-tos) may not be occupied by the same person or persons for more than three successive nights or for more than 10 nights in any one calendar year, provided others wish to use such camps.

b. The enclosure of the fronts of open camps is prohibited, except by tying canvas or nylon tarpaulins in place or erecting snow walls. The use of wood, nails, screws or other fasteners is prohibited.

c. The erection of tents in open camps is prohibited.
There was another thread on lean-to etiquette that covered some of these same questions this past summer.
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:18 PM   #62
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Get a good bag and bivy/tent and practice at areas in lower elevation. I prefer a bivy but others cannot stand the feeling. Probably best to start camping in late fall or early spring to get a feel for it before wandering up a mountain far from help. One rule of thumb layers, layers, layers.

Winter camping can be a very expensive undertaking so be sure it is something you want to pursue before dropping all that $$$
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:16 PM   #63
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Back on page 3 of this thread we were discussing attaching tarps to leantos without violating DEC regs. In another thread I remember a discussion concerning the use of bug nets or bivies in the leanto. I was curious as to what the DEC would actually say on these issues so I write to them. Here is the response (quoted directly from the email I received from Capt Richter:


"I checked with the Forest Ranger Captains assigned to the Adirondack and
Catskill regions (they have most of the lean-to)s and it was their
consensus (and mine) that the blue tarps would be OK under the spirit of
the regulation. At the time the regulation was enacted, the tarps in
question were not prevalent, but they are in essence the same as the
tarps we allow by statute.

We also felt the bivy sacks would be ok. I agree that some of these
are approaching a tent like appearance but the simpler ones in
particular should be ok - especially the one person models verses the 2
person bivy sacks. Obviously we cannot determine when a tent becomes a
tent - but if it is kept simple one should be ok. We also must rely on
the good judgement of our Forest Rangers and the cooperation of the user
public.

I hope this response is of some assistance to you, but if you have
further questions, please feel free to contact me.

Captain Richter"
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:21 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuctTape View Post
Back on page 3 of this thread we were discussing attaching tarps to leantos without violating DEC regs. In another thread I remember a discussion concerning the use of bug nets or bivies in the leanto. I was curious as to what the DEC would actually say on these issues so I write to them. Here is the response (quoted directly from the email I received from Capt Richter:


"I checked with the Forest Ranger Captains assigned to the Adirondack and
Catskill regions (they have most of the lean-to)s and it was their
consensus (and mine) that the blue tarps would be OK under the spirit of
the regulation. At the time the regulation was enacted, the tarps in
question were not prevalent, but they are in essence the same as the
tarps we allow by statute.

We also felt the bivy sacks would be ok. I agree that some of these
are approaching a tent like appearance but the simpler ones in
particular should be ok - especially the one person models verses the 2
person bivy sacks. Obviously we cannot determine when a tent becomes a
tent - but if it is kept simple one should be ok. We also must rely on
the good judgement of our Forest Rangers and the cooperation of the user
public.

I hope this response is of some assistance to you, but if you have
further questions, please feel free to contact me.

Captain Richter"
It would seem by common sense that if a bivy (not a sack but one of the more tent like ones) took up approximately no more space than a pad and exposed bag that it would OK. I've used a bug bivy before that is about 6 inches wider than my pad and requires 2 poles to put up. Of course I've never shared a lean-to with it with anyone so I don't know if they'd have been offended but I'd think not provided it was on a side of the lean-to and not in the middle.

I'm assuming the lean-to isn't full, I believe state law states that you cannot claim a lean-to or deny access to it until the capacity is reached. If your bivy means the 6th or 8th person (most hold 6 or 8 people) cannot fit in then it should be taken down. In principle this sounds good, but if 5 people tell me it's full, and I'm 6 miles from a trail head my options are to agree, and come back during the night and mess 'em up in a stealth attack ...just kidding, I'd just move on, I'm not that stealthy. But you get the point.

A good example is the west canada lakes wilderness where a hiker was told to vacate the lean-to by a fellow and his new bride because it was their honeymoon. He was told they intended to have a wild night and said OK. Then when it was clear he wasn't leaving, he was told they had a gun. He wisely chose to leave and tent it rather than find out. Personally, I'd have stayed, honeymoons are the best, or at least mine was!!!
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:56 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pico23 View Post
A good example is the west canada lakes wilderness where a hiker was told to vacate the lean-to by a fellow and his new bride because it was their honeymoon. He was told they intended to have a wild night and said OK. Then when it was clear he wasn't leaving, he was told they had a gun. He wisely chose to leave and tent it rather than find out. Personally, I'd have stayed, honeymoons are the best, or at least mine was!!!
Now that must have been a REAL WILD NIGHT!!
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:20 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pico23 View Post
I believe state law states that you cannot claim a lean-to or deny access to it until the capacity is reached.
The applicable regs for lean-to use outside the High Peaks is listed in my previous post (12-12-07). Although the state might intend lean-tos to be shared, this has not been codified in the regulations and would therefore seem to me to be unenforceable. To my knowledge, a single person CAN legally claim exclusive occupancy of a lean-to.
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:31 AM   #67
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Sure but..

190.6.j.4 -
j. No person shall, while on State land or waters under the jurisdiction of the department:
4. engage in fighting or violent, tumultuous or threatening behavior



I'd say that would apply in this case -
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:20 PM   #68
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Well, by the sounds of it, if the hiker had stayed in the lean-to then at some point during the night the couple might have risked violating 190.8.j.2, which reads thus:

Quote:
j. No person shall, while on State land or waters under the jurisdiction of the department:

2. intentionally expose the private or intimate parts of his or her body in a lewd manner
Looks like they were bound to get in trouble one way or another. Perhaps they should have picked a more secluded lean-to.
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:31 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildriver View Post
Looks like they were bound to get in trouble one way or another. Perhaps they should have picked a more secluded lean-to.
...but it would have been more difficult to bring the champagne further out.
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:33 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildriver View Post
Well, by the sounds of it, if the hiker had stayed in the lean-to then at some point during the night the couple might have risked violating 190.8.j.2, which reads thus:



Looks like they were bound to get in trouble one way or another. Perhaps they should have picked a more secluded lean-to.
Or a motel with pine scented rooms, leaf pattern curtains, a jacuzzi and a heavy duty bed.

My reply to them would have been "Great!! I Love Threesomes!!!"

Hawk
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:34 PM   #71
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Maybe Campmor or REI sells dehydrated champagne... ?
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:31 PM   #72
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But what defines lewd? ,isn't that up to the standards of the community? What defines "community" at an ADK LT? Depending on how cute....better not go there....
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:41 PM   #73
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But what defines lewd? ,isn't that up to the standards of the community? What defines "community" at an ADK LT? Depending on how cute....better not go there....
Oh, Please Do!!
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:41 PM   #74
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Must be like the old Supreme Court ruling - I can't define lewd, but I know it when I see it!
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:11 PM   #75
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Trouble-maker!
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:47 PM   #76
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Moi?
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:05 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildriver View Post
The applicable regs for lean-to use outside the High Peaks is listed in my previous post (12-12-07). Although the state might intend lean-tos to be shared, this has not been codified in the regulations and would therefore seem to me to be unenforceable. To my knowledge, a single person CAN legally claim exclusive occupancy of a lean-to.
I'll have to check on this, but I've seen it listed on the lean-to's, perhaps only in the high peaks, I don't know, we rarely actually use them, maybe just 4 times a year. Tents are more bug free, and for those wild nights I never feel the need to evict anyone but the dog, and he's used to it anyway...

Time to find the listing of the occupancy (whether it be "law" or a DEC edict/code of conduct) which I don't want to say I am 100% sure of seeing, but I'll wager 99.9999%.
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:46 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildriver View Post
The applicable regs for lean-to use outside the High Peaks is listed in my previous post (12-12-07). Although the state might intend lean-tos to be shared, this has not been codified in the regulations and would therefore seem to me to be unenforceable. To my knowledge, a single person CAN legally claim exclusive occupancy of a lean-to.
If there is no legal precedent, they cannot claim exclusive occupancy.

I was once told that I had to leave the Plumley Landing lean-to by a party of 10 hunters who landed there by float plane becasue they had it "reserved"

I very quickly made them cognizent of both, lean-to's are not reserved, and I wasn't leaving.

Actually when i saw them getting their gear off the plane I was going to grab my tent and move on, right up until the moment they told me I had to leave.

They were rather uncomfortable that night, thinking me a bit crazy for arguing with armed men as they implied), which suited me fine. I don't know where these guys were from because they certainly were not representative of the hunters I know.

As far as I know it's "policy" that lean-tos be shared up to the limit of it's occupancy. Even without a statute or regulation, it's enforceable by rangers and DEC officers as agents of the state and implementers of policy.

Hawk
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:57 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
If there is no legal precedent, they cannot claim exclusive occupancy.

I was once told that I had to leave the Plumley Landing lean-to by a party of 10 hunters who landed there by float plane becasue they had it "reserved"

I very quickly made them cognizent of both, lean-to's are not reserved, and I wasn't leaving.

Actually when i saw them getting their gear off the plane I was going to grab my tent and move on, right up until the moment they told me I had to leave.

They were rather uncomfortable that night, thinking me a bit crazy for arguing with armed men as they implied), which suited me fine. I don't know where these guys were from because they certainly were not representative of the hunters I know.

As far as I know it's "policy" that lean-tos be shared up to the limit of it's occupancy. Even without a statute or regulation, it's enforceable by rangers and DEC officers as agents of the state and implementers of policy.

Hawk
Thus far the only link I've find is on Paddling.net which does list it under the ADK regs, however, it's not a formal listing, just a paragraph form listing, and it's out of date (it's pre 4000ft rule) which I still claim ignorance on in winter.

The problem is compounded by the state not listing lean-to's always as lean-to's but occasionally "open camps". But a search of both open camps and lean-to on the DEC site, the APA Regulations, and not as of yet the master plan has yielded nothing.

So now I'm wondering if I've seen these regs in NH or VT in the National Forest, but the listing on paddling.net has me at least somewhat thinking it is somewhere in the NY lean-to as well.

BTW, your story makes me laugh...ballsy for sure, but the right thing to do once you were "informed" of the reserved status. My feelings would have been the same, tent it right up until I was told to tent it.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:23 AM   #80
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The "exclusive use rule" appears on the ADK trail maps, which is where most people see it. It also appears on the DEC website on a summary list of the backcountry camping regulations as follows:

Quote:
Lean-tos are available in many areas on a first come first served basis. Lean-tos cannot be used exclusively and must be shared with other campers.
However, this is just a summary and not an actual regulation. A DEC ranger might insist that you share, but as far as I can tell if you were ticketed for not sharing it wouldn't hold up in court.

DEC's regulations are notorious for their loopholes, so this is not the only case. My favorite loophole regards pack animals. The regs specifically mention only horses--where they are allowed, where they are not allowed. All other pack animals are therefore unregulated. Several hunting parties have been using mules to cart gear down hiking trails where horses are prohibited. Llamas, alpacas, and elephants are all fair game.
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