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Old 09-12-2018, 01:34 PM   #21
Neil
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While things like solo trekking in far backwoods areas could result in inconvenience to a LOT of other people IF something should go wrong
The safest option of course is never to hike, hunt or fish ( ie. remote ponds and streams) off-trail, to always carry a satellite device and to never go hiking alone.
If we compared solo hiking with a satellite tracker in trailless country to going with a group of four but no device then IMO having the device, even if solo is better. An SOS signal pin-points your position and rescuers are led directly to your location. Also, a response can be initiated immediately, rather than having to wait for someone to hike out. That runner might be too tired to lead rescuers back in and can only give an approximate location to rescuers (unless using a GPS with a waypoint marking the spot).

While not a guarantee of never having a mishap, maintaining a very high level of fitness, balance, coordination and strength is safer than traveling with a group. 4 people have 4 times the probability of someone sustaining an immobilizing injury than a solo hiker.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:38 PM   #22
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Actually, his doctor diagnosed it as originating from poor hand sanitation, and originating from his dog, who also contracted it , after drinking untreated surface water. DEC advises that dogs be kept away from water sources in the woods as well, and you are legally required to have your dog leashed on lands inhabited by deer, so the dog could be prevented from drinking from contaminated water. But it requires transmission from one host to another, and water is a very likely vector, especially with a one million to one dilution factor involved.
My understanding is that dogs may be asymptomatic carriers for life. Hence the time of infection could have been anytime.

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Pets may live with these parasites in their intestines with no signs of illness. But eggs passed in the pet's feces can infect humans. Like bacteria, the major route of infection to humans is fecal-oral. ... Giardia and Cryptosporidia are immediately infective so potentially could be transmitted by a lick.
As for people not leashing their dogs we would need another thread for that discussion!
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:44 PM   #23
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What is "wrong," is these supposedly educating folks yelling at everyone else about how "wrong" they are.
I don't think anyone is yelling that everyone else is wrong. I see multiple angles of a complex question being presented with highly qualified but opposing references being given. Tone is difficult to gauge on a written forum and when presenting a view that may conflict with someone else's one must tread very carefully.

I also don't think anyone is trying to "educate" anyone else, just presenting interesting evidence for various angles. The most important thing is to be exposed to a variety of viewpoints without seeing one's own as the only possible one.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:50 PM   #24
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My understanding is that dogs may be asymptomatic carriers for life. Hence the time of infection could have been anytime.

As for people not leashing their dogs we would need another thread for that discussion!
The dog showed symptoms in the same time frame as my brother. Other cases were also identified from the same area.

It is nevertheless a disease requiring a source of pathogens, unless you have it, you can't give it to yourself, and if there is a method of transmission, one carrier can give it to a LOT of people.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:52 PM   #25
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Filter and tablets. Mostly tablets when I'm by myself. I carry two water containers and alternate so that the one I just finished gets an hour or two of treatment time. I don't worry about viruses in the backcountry. Just bacteria and parasites. The gravity filter is great because I have used it out west where sheep and cattle are grazed on public land and can impact flowing water.

I do agree with the above post that poor personal hygiene is probably the most common cause for gastrointestinal distress that hikers and campers experience. It's usually not serious, but it happens enough that people attribute it to the water somehow.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:55 PM   #26
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I don't think anyone is yelling that everyone else is wrong. I see multiple angles of a complex question being presented with highly qualified but opposing references being given. Tone is difficult to gauge on a written forum and when presenting a view that may conflict with someone else's one must tread very carefully.

I also don't think anyone is trying to "educate" anyone else, just presenting interesting evidence for various angles. The most important thing is to be exposed to a variety of viewpoints without seeing one's own as the only possible one.
I think you misunderstand. I'm not talking about the folks here. I'm talking about Schlimmer, Welch, various DEC sources, etc.
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:01 PM   #27
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It is nevertheless a disease requiring a source of pathogens, unless you have it, you can't give it to yourself, and if there is a method of transmission, one carrier can give it to a LOT of people.
Hence the recommendation to trim one's nails (you don't know if you are a carrier if you haven't been tested) and to exercise good hygiene.
We are focusing on Giardia here but there are other organisms to be worried about.
Quick wiki search on "wilderness acquired diarrhea" yields up this:
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The most commonly reported are the protozoa Giardia and Cryptosporidium.[10] Other infectious agents may play a larger role than generally believed[4] and include Campylobacter, hepatitis A virus, hepatitis E virus, enterotoxogenic E. coli, E. coli O157:H7, Shigella, and various other viruses. More rarely, Yersinia enterocolitica, Aeromonas hydrophila, and Cyanobacterium may also cause disease.[11]
Kinda makes you want to treat every drop you drink!
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:04 PM   #28
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I think you misunderstand. I'm not talking about the folks here. I'm talking about Schlimmer, Welch, various DEC sources, etc.
OK. Got it. Wiltse did come down pretty hard on Schlimmer but then Welch defended him while coming down hard on the DEC. That's probably how a lot of science gets done. Experts beating on each other until only the truth remains.
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:47 PM   #29
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The odds of getting sick from drinking "wild water" may well be slim. But the way to assess risk is that likelihood x severity of outcome = risk. In this case the outcome could be very unpleasant indeed, and one might consider treating water. Another factor is ease of mitigation. I have the MSR MiniWorks which is a cheap and easy insurance.

By the way the old artesian well by the former great camp at Lila is still up and running.
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:39 PM   #30
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Hence the recommendation to trim one's nails (you don't know if you are a carrier if you haven't been tested) and to exercise good hygiene.
We are focusing on Giardia here but there are other organisms to be worried about.
Quick wiki search on "wilderness acquired diarrhea" yields up this:
Kinda makes you want to treat every drop you drink!
Crypto is also going to require an outside source, but many of the others listed as common, esp the E. Coli, could be self inflicted from stool-hand -mouth contact, as it is a normal lower GI inhabitant but can wreck great havoc in a short time in the upper GI. Cyanobacterium is also known as Blue Green Algae, and NYSDOH is basically saying if it looks blue green, or red, resembles a paint spill, et al, just avoid it completely, no swimming, boating anything that could initiate contact. And BG is worse for dogs because they lick their fur, which traps and concentrates the algal bodies. These blooms are rare in the Adirondacks so far, though, except in Champlain. https://health.ny.gov/environmental/...luegreenalgae/
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:41 PM   #31
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Respectfully, there is no way the Dr. could have confirmed the vector for the dog was untreated backcountry water unless said water source was tested.
Most cases are speculated to be from backcountry water, but little of the water has been tested. Many people are carriers. Day care centers are a frequent source for outbreaks, as are restaurants. Due to the variable length of the incubation period and other aspects of giardia tracing the real source is extremely difficult especially from only a few with confirmed cases.
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:45 PM   #32
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The odds of getting sick from drinking "wild water" may well be slim. But the way to assess risk is that likelihood x severity of outcome = risk. In this case the outcome could be very unpleasant indeed, and one might consider treating water. Another factor is ease of mitigation. I have the MSR MiniWorks which is a cheap and easy insurance.

By the way the old artesian well by the former great camp at Lila is still up and running.
My wife doesn't drink the well water in the cottage we rent anymore, as there is a hamlet with questionable septics up hill (all code compliant distances but....) and the shallow area of the lake out front draws large crowds of boaters who anchor, sit in the sun, drink beer, and jump in the water for 5 minutes or so every once in a while. I have explained that urinary pathways are much more limited in causing problems, but.... Plus there is the plethora of dog walkers, and there is no code requiring politeness to neighbors up there, LOL. Sand is the best filter going, but there are still no guarantees.
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:05 PM   #33
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Respectfully, there is no way the Dr. could have confirmed the vector for the dog was untreated backcountry water unless said water source was tested.
Most cases are speculated to be from backcountry water, but little of the water has been tested. Many people are carriers. Day care centers are a frequent source for outbreaks, as are restaurants. Due to the variable length of the incubation period and other aspects of giardia tracing the real source is extremely difficult especially from only a few with confirmed cases.
I never said the water and the strains of giardia were untested, and I did not say they came from the backcountry. They did originate from a local park that is used for dog walking by a lot of people, but is also inhabited by beaver, and many other mammal species. The Park is large, and the area where the outbreak was investigated is fairly wild, but there are lots of potential vectors.

Again, to quote CDC, and they do not prioritize.
"Anyone may become infected with Giardia. However, those at greatest risk are :
•Travelers to countries where giardiasis is common
•People in childcare settings
•Those who are in close contact with someone who has the disease
•People who swallow contaminated drinking water
•Backpackers or campers who drink untreated water from lakes or rivers
•People who have contact with animals who have the disease
•Men who have sex with men"

New York City monitors reservoir outlets and other surface points in the reservoir system for Giardia, and they get hits, generally low but as high as 8 per 50 L. So they are not concentrated but, neither is the bullet density in revolver employed for Russian Roulette (LOL!).
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/dri...pathogen.shtml
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:13 PM   #34
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Crypto is also going to require an outside source, but many of the others listed as common, esp the E. Coli, could be self inflicted from stool-hand -mouth contact, as it is a normal lower GI inhabitant but can wreck great havoc in a short time in the upper GI. Cyanobacterium is also known as Blue Green Algae, and NYSDOH is basically saying if it looks blue green, or red, resembles a paint spill, et al, just avoid it completely, no swimming, boating anything that could initiate contact. And BG is worse for dogs because they lick their fur, which traps and concentrates the algal bodies. These blooms are rare in the Adirondacks so far, though, except in Champlain. https://health.ny.gov/environmental/...luegreenalgae/
I believe Blue Green algae has been identified in Otter Lake just this past week.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:40 PM   #35
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I would add that the effects of Giardia can be more than the immediate GI distress & weight loss (unpleasant though they are.) The parasite often "turns off" the GI tract's ability to digest lactose; and in some cases -- including mine -- the lactose intolerance is permanent, even after the infection is eliminated. I used to think that Giardia wouldn't be that big a deal: just a course of treatment, and presto! gone. I know better now.

I also read in the NIH information on giardia that neither filtering nor chemical treatment is 100% effective, but that doing both almost is. So now I filter, and then treat. I rotate bottles as someone else mentioned, so each one can "cure" for 2 or more hours before I drink or use it.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:42 PM   #36
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Back in 200and something sorry forget when I was part of a small group that paddled the Lows lake - Oswegatchie route. We treated and filtered all the way as I recall. A simple scratch to my hand getting over or under a blow down on the Oswegatchie resulted in treatable sepsis within about 4 or hours. One of our party thought it would be a good idea to fill a Nalgene at High Falls and down it in one. He was diagnosed with Giardia within a week of getting home. No one else on the trip got sick. Whilst there was no extensive lab work to determine what he had really got I thinks it is reasonable to infer that if you drink untreated water for a water course that ha extensive beaver activity there is a likely hood you may become ill. My mate certainly was ill as his wife to be can attest.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:51 AM   #37
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Back in 200and something sorry forget when I was part of a small group that paddled the Lows lake - Oswegatchie route. We treated and filtered all the way as I recall. A simple scratch to my hand getting over or under a blow on the Oswegatchie resulted in treatable sepsis within about 4 or hours. One of our party thought it would be a good idea to fill a Nalgene at High Falls and down it in one. He was diagnosed with Giardia within a week of getting home. No one else on the trip got sick. Whilst there was no extensive lab work to determine what he had really got I thinks it is reasonable to infer that if you drink untreated water for a water course that ha extensive beaver activity there is a likely hood you may become ill. My mate certainly was ill as his wife to be can attest.
It is probably another thread, but infection is almost a sure thing in even the most minor of untreated cuts and scratches up there, what with all that decay going on everywhere. The mold and fungus capital of the planet! There is always Neosporin in the first aid kit, and band-aids are not just for kids.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:09 AM   #38
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Very valuable thread, thanks all! I tend to avoid hand sanitizer like the plague (pun), but maybe I'll bring some to the backcountry now. And neosporin, check.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:11 PM   #39
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Very valuable thread, thanks all! I tend to avoid hand sanitizer like the plague (pun), but maybe I'll bring some to the backcountry now. And neosporin, check.
What do you have against hand sanitizer? (alcohol-based that is. Not Triclosan. that stuff is a super-germ waiting to happen)
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:22 PM   #40
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Not really sure how it is in other areas of the Adirondacks but the central, southern, & eastern regions seem to have lots of natural springs in those backcountry hillsides, especially during the Spring & Fall. I always carry a purification pump but I honestly don’t use it a whole lot. I went a few years without ever using it a while back & figured I should buy a new filter for it, which I did just last year. I think I’ve only used it once this year.
I did get pretty sick once a few years back, a few days after drinking from a small stream high up on the Metcalf Range, but then again sometimes I get the same symptoms ordering from the pizza shop down the road from my house so who knows...
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