Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > Biking in the Adirondacks
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-30-2014, 08:44 PM   #21
bmike-vt
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I agree, a more specific route might help with responses about local ethics of a given area, regardless of the government's regulations. Whatever the NYSDEC says, doesn't always necessarily make it so. I think that it is clear that some folks may not take kindly to your bicycle in a wilderness area, and that you should be prepared for some criticism if you happen to come across other hikers along a "wilderness" trail.
So, regardless of regulation it doesn't make it so?

I have got to stop reading this thread. My head is going to explode with some of the responses.

What would you say if you came across someone carrying all their gear for a multi day outing, and had their bike, in pieces, strapped to their back?
bmike-vt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 08:54 PM   #22
Justin
Moving along
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmike-vt View Post
What would you say if you came across someone carrying all their gear for a multi day outing, and had their bike, in pieces, strapped to their back?
I'd stop and say "Hi, how's it going... where are you headed"? As I usually do when I pass people on the trail.
Justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 09:58 PM   #23
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmike-vt View Post
What would you say if you came across someone carrying all their gear for a multi day outing, and had their bike, in pieces, strapped to their back?
I'd ask you why you didn't just strap your gear to your bike and push it. Seems a lot easier to me.

I wouldn't get bent out of shape over the anti-bike in the wilderness attitude. It's pretty common. But really what is the worst someone is going to do? Give you a dirty look and call the DEC when they get back. Go for it I say. A lot worse goes on and goes unpunished. If someone wants to whistle blow someone because they saw a bike in a 'Wilderness' area, then go for it. I'm sorry the sight of a rolling bicycle caused you so much grief... not! If it's not hurting the trail then who cares besides some elitist blowhards who think it is aesthetically unpleasing?

And I hate to say it, but it is for the DEC to decide whether or not to ticket you. They are the body which enforces the law. If a ticket was issued, then it would be for the court to decide. Not anyone on an internet forum or on the trail for that matter.

You won't get a ticket for pushing a bike without pedals. Pretty sure of that.

And do you know what happened out west when they started banning bikes on Federal land? People just broke the law and rode them anyway. And guess what? It's legal now in certain areas. I have no idea about 'Wilderness' areas. But what you propose isn't even the same. It's low impact and non-threatening to others enjoying the wild. One could argue actually riding is not, but pushing? And pushing a disabled bike? Really?
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2014, 10:34 PM   #24
Justin
Moving along
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,021
Believe it or not, some people go to wilderness areas to avoid other people and their mechanical devices.
Again, local etiquette usually has some sort of right of way, regardless of the government regs.
That's just been my experience throughout the Adirondacks.
Take it for what it's worth, which is only my opinion and thoughts on the subject, which I'm passing along, and I'm sure doesn't carry much weight.
People will always do what they think is ok, no matter what others say, even when they ask first.
Please accept or excuse my Adirondack Wilderness advocate point of view.

Last edited by Justin; 05-30-2014 at 11:02 PM..
Justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 12:27 AM   #25
bmike-vt
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 203
montcalm - yes, i can roll it, and i have done that here in VT on a short stretch of bikes forbidden trail, (less than 1/4 mile) to connect to bike legal trails.

packing for me, just eliminates any doubt of what i'm doing. the bike is part of my luggage. its an external frame pack. and if i'm on the road machine with cross tires its not crazy heavy. if I'm on the fargo with fatter tires - then it certainly can add to the weight.

anyway, thanks for all the info.

regarding routes:

going back to my notes from my MRP trip when i mapped out some options - those revolved around getting into and out of MRP and trying to cut out road sections. one sketch was from perkins clearing to NPT then otter brook (is it / isn't it legal bike?) then on to MRP. another was looking at hoffman notch as a cut through. getting to or from hoffman road / schroon lake.

a route i looked at a couple of years ago would give me a days ride to north of upper works, camp, then walk through to the loj, then out and back to VT.

i also want to do some trips without a car from home - in a loop, or through trip.

here in vt i sketched out some rides that get me to 1 side of mansfield or camel's hump or a WMA. if i carry up and over, i can continue on.

its not about shortcuts, its about exploring the world.

anyway.

the real goal here is to be able to do self propelled, long(er) trips, and use existing trails or overland routes to connect interesting places. just because i'm on a bike doesn't mean i don't want to also hike through areas and see them from 2 feet. and the ultimate goal, when budget allows, is to get a pack raft so i can ride in, hike as needed, and float out to some other place interesting.

some pics from out west:
not me, but in the grand canyon:



i believe this one is on fed wilderness - near aspen. carrying 10 miles through eliminated a 70 mile road ride:



a nice end goal would be to be able to mix in some of this




lots of places in the ADKs 'dead end' in water if you aren't prepared with a boat. but that is a ways off. i need to get fitness back to where i was when i did my solo 200 mile road through ride in a day from burlington to utica, and when i did a 2 day 230 mile ride with camping gear through the MRP. lots to think about. lots of fitness to be gained.
bmike-vt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 06:20 AM   #26
randomscooter
Native Earthling
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Scooterville, NY
Posts: 1,500
Sounds like fun and a great way to get a richer experience from your adventure.

I've just sent an email to a ranger to get his feedback. Hopefully we will have a response before long.
__________________
Scooting here and there
Through the woods and up the peaks
Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


"Pushing the limits of easy."
randomscooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 06:45 AM   #27
Zach
Last seen wandering vaguely
 
Zach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Orwell NY
Posts: 736
If I ran the world people would not be allowed to let their dogs run loose ahead of them and harass other hikers, but this still goes on frequently(at least in my limited experience). If an activity is both legally allowed and non-threatening to others I wouldn't worry about whether it offended someone's sense of "ethics".
Zach
Zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 08:53 AM   #28
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Believe it or not, some people go to wilderness areas to avoid other people and their mechanical devices.
Well in that case we might as well ban fishing poles, guns, traps, stoves, backpacks, canoes and paddles, canoe carts and rafts... because they are all mechanical devices. If you want the true wilderness experience I suggest you head off like they do in 'Naked and Afraid'.

There are all sorts of terrible arguments why bikes should be banned, but in reality, they fall into the same category 'mechanically' as the devices above.

Trail impact is the last straw that is hanging by a thread to keep bikes away. Most of the fault is trail design. And the bike legal trails aren't necessarily better for bikes. There have also been some controversial studies that show boots erode trails just as much as driven bike tires do, if not worse.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 12:16 PM   #29
redhawk
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
 
redhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,933
I haven't weighed in on this but far and away, whatever your beliefs are, telling someone to just ignore the law has no justification. A law is a law, whether we agree with it or not. No law is going to please everyone and there are a lot of laws that should exist but don't in many peoples minds.

Sometimes laws are needed to ensure personal freedoms, as much of an oximoron as that might seem.

I also believe that suggesting to someone that they ignore or violate the law is against the rules that are posted for this forum.

There are laws that I disagree with, however I obey them because it is my responsibility as a citizen.
__________________
"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
redhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 01:28 PM   #30
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
I haven't weighed in on this but far and away, whatever your beliefs are, telling someone to just ignore the law has no justification. A law is a law, whether we agree with it or not. No law is going to please everyone and there are a lot of laws that should exist but don't in many peoples minds.

Sometimes laws are needed to ensure personal freedoms, as much of an oximoron as that might seem.

I also believe that suggesting to someone that they ignore or violate the law is against the rules that are posted for this forum.

There are laws that I disagree with, however I obey them because it is my responsibility as a citizen.
no one suggested ignoring a law - the law clearly states 'operating a bicycle' not carrying a bicycle.

However people who willful disobey the law may use such as a form of protest. Such was the case with bikers out west, and it worked out in their favor. No where ever in this entire post was it suggested that bike be ridden in a Wilderness area as a form of protest or not...

the notion of pushing bikes in Wilderness areas has been suggested and talked about long before this post.

Last edited by Neil; 06-01-2014 at 11:03 AM.. Reason: Personal.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2014, 06:32 PM   #31
Justin
Moving along
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by montcalm View Post
Well in that case we might as well ban fishing poles, guns, traps, stoves, backpacks, canoes and paddles, canoe carts and rafts... because they are all mechanical devices. If you want the true wilderness experience I suggest you head off like they do in 'Naked and Afraid'.

There are all sorts of terrible arguments why bikes should be banned, but in reality, they fall into the same category 'mechanically' as the devices above.
I respectfully disagree.
The only things that I posses and use in a wilderness area that are considered mechanical as a noun are my fishing rod & reel, my camera, and my headlamp. I haven't used a stove while backpacking in over ten years.
Honestly, I personally don't have any problems with someone carrying their bike "through" a wilderness area, but I know people who do, and just passing my experience along.
I like to ride also, but you can bet that I will at least make an effort to politely communicate with someone if I happened to see them with a bicycle in a wilderness area.

Last edited by Justin; 05-31-2014 at 06:59 PM.. Reason: forgot headlamp
Justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 06:29 AM   #32
randomscooter
Native Earthling
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Scooterville, NY
Posts: 1,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomscooter View Post
Sounds like fun and a great way to get a richer experience from your adventure.

I've just sent an email to a ranger to get his feedback. Hopefully we will have a response before long.
Okay, I got a response. I specifically mentioned the Upper Works to Loj via Indian Pass as an example.

First, keep in mind that enforcement folks will look at the entire context of a situation that they encounter, not just the "boiled down" question that I asked. In other words, the reply leaves some doubt, or some wiggle room, depending on how you interpret it. We love simple answers, but that's not how the real world works. That said...

First, if the bike is broken down there should be no problem.

Second, if the bike is being pushed, with the pedals and/or crank removed, there is doubt. The ranger expressed concern that the bike can still be sat upon.

That is the end of the ranger's input. The rest is just my thoughts, and should NOT be interpreted as being ranger's input.

I believe the issue is that it would be possible to coast along on flats and downhills while sitting on the bike. Perhaps the doubt would be minimized/eliminated if the seat is removed, and/or gear is packed on the bike in such a way that it is obvious the bike cannot be ridden. Or perhaps not. You'll have to decide for yourself.

If you encounter a ranger and he is doubtful, I would strongly urge that you be apologetic, stating simply that you thought it would be okay since you can't sit on it or otherwise ride it. Then alleviate his doubt by simply agreeing to disassemble the bike and carry it from that point on.
__________________
Scooting here and there
Through the woods and up the peaks
Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


"Pushing the limits of easy."
randomscooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2014, 11:18 AM   #33
Neil
Kayak-46
 
Neil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,917
This thread exemplifies the best and the worst of the world of internet forums.

Interesting question.
Some thoughtful replies.
Then the downward spiral (in no particular order): implications put upon certain posts that were never there (either that or I missed something). Helping to derail the discussion we often see replies using exaggerated examples that tend to antagonize. New implications built upon the previous implications. Baiting and interpersonal bickering that have SFA to do with the OP. I think we even got a dog reference!

Anyway, no need to lock the thread if it can stay on topic heretofore.

My .02 is that if it's legal, it's legal. If not, well it's not. What makes the question interesting fodder for forum debate is that it seems to fall into a grey area.

One's personal ethics or beliefs don't answer the OP's question. It's not unlike someone asking if it's legal to bring a dog into the Siamese Ponds Wilderness and someone responds with their personal views (and an anecdote backing them up) on dogs in the wilderness.
__________________
The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.
Neil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 07:41 PM   #34
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 908
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomscooter View Post
Okay, I got a response. I specifically mentioned the Upper Works to Loj via Indian Pass as an example.

First, keep in mind that enforcement folks will look at the entire context of a situation that they encounter, not just the "boiled down" question that I asked. In other words, the reply leaves some doubt, or some wiggle room, depending on how you interpret it. We love simple answers, but that's not how the real world works. That said...

First, if the bike is broken down there should be no problem.

Second, if the bike is being pushed, with the pedals and/or crank removed, there is doubt. The ranger expressed concern that the bike can still be sat upon.

That is the end of the ranger's input. The rest is just my thoughts, and should NOT be interpreted as being ranger's input.

I believe the issue is that it would be possible to coast along on flats and downhills while sitting on the bike. Perhaps the doubt would be minimized/eliminated if the seat is removed, and/or gear is packed on the bike in such a way that it is obvious the bike cannot be ridden. Or perhaps not. You'll have to decide for yourself.

If you encounter a ranger and he is doubtful, I would strongly urge that you be apologetic, stating simply that you thought it would be okay since you can't sit on it or otherwise ride it. Then alleviate his doubt by simply agreeing to disassemble the bike and carry it from that point on.
This is good info and clearly gives the best choice. Thanks for asking.

Different rangers may see this differently. The sources I had consulted (not Rangers but DEC employees) had claimed the disabled bike was OK whether the user was on the seat or not.

My choice is to push - not carry. In light of this response I would remove the seat as well as the pedals to give the best chance for leniency. I still would also be humble if questioned by a Ranger and not freak out if I got a ticket or was asked to carry the bike.

I'm guessing High Peaks rangers might be a little more stringent than some of the other areas, just because of relative traffic.

I didn't mean to get upset, but I too, like the original poster, get upset when certain people attack bikers for trying to enjoy the outdoors within the regulations given. Sometimes that requires creative thinking.

And I still do not see a bike as any more or less mechanical than a fishing pole, a camera, or a headlamp. The latter two even go beyond into the electrical realm. It seems to be more what people are accustomed to rather than what it really is in terms of mechanisms in the Wilderness.
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 07:57 PM   #35
bmike-vt
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 203
Thanks all.

I think it's great that we can drive right into the heart of wilderness to hike (with or without your favorite canoe, fishing pole, camera, hi tech fabric, GPS, etc) with a fossil fuel guzzling vehicle, that might have come up on the north way or over hundreds of miles of paved roads, tapping into complex global infrastructure to keep it running and fueled up - yet some appear to get upset when someone (me) politely asks if I might, in order to honor the spirit of the regulation of wilderness (kind of funny, having those words right next to each other), traverse said country (and even 'wild forest' country on non approved trails) with a particular clean, light, human powered piece of equipment either disabled or carried for certain portions of a trip.

Anyway, this has been great information. I don't know if a trip will happen this year - but it will help greatly for planning.
bmike-vt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 08:27 PM   #36
montcalm
Mobster
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 908
I would not fret bmike. The times, they are a changin'. We've already seen a radical shift out west in terms of bikes in the wild and I know for a fact that things are being done to expand trail networks in the Adirondacks. Some of this is networking of current Wild Forest trails on private land by those owners gracious enough to build and provide these trails. Some of it, I believe, but I don't know for sure, is in response to the lack of areas to ride, but based on some of the areas I know this is happening it may be also to connect around Wilderness areas without using roads.

Riders really need to form networks and clubs to improve current snowmobile and ski trails to be utilized in the warmer months. A lot of these networks are horribly maintained or in poor repair because they were not designed to be used by bikes. Many of them look much different with 3 or 4 feet of snowpack on them. This forces most bikers onto old dirt roads, or current dirt roads. This, however, is not true mountain biking and becomes as boring as riding on paved roads or an exercise bike.

Anyway, I would not count on the DEC or hikers to help improve these trails in the Wild Forests. Get active if you want to ride in the wild!
montcalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 06:53 AM   #37
Zach
Last seen wandering vaguely
 
Zach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Orwell NY
Posts: 736
Quote:
I think we even got a dog reference!
Sorry, that was my fault. What I was intending to convey was that in my opinion laws matter but personal ethics are very subjective and individual and not relevant to the actions of others.
Zach
Zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 10:28 AM   #38
Neil
Kayak-46
 
Neil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach View Post
Sorry, that was my fault. What I was intending to convey was that in my opinion laws matter but personal ethics are very subjective and individual and not relevant to the actions of others.
Zach
No problem. In your example you didn't pass judgement on dogs that use smart phones.
__________________
The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.
Neil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 09:31 PM   #39
Vinegar
Member
 
Vinegar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by montcalm View Post
Riders really need to form networks and clubs to improve current snowmobile and ski trails to be utilized in the warmer months. A lot of these networks are horribly maintained or in poor repair because they were not designed to be used by bikes.
Sorry for the additional thread drift but this caught my eye.

I wouldn't expect much cooperation from snowmobile clubs, especially if you want to use the same trails. There are a lot of reasons, but you hit on part of one, some of the trails aren't meant for bikes. Like it or not, under the wrong conditions bikes damage trails, and you'd be surprised what kind of havoc some ruts in the underlying dirt can do to the snow cover on a trail in the winter. There are a lot of snowmobilers who don't want ATVs on "their" trails for this reason (and a lot of them own ATVs).

But the snowmobile trail model is a good one. Snowmobile clubs are fairly organized and have been working for decades to secure permissions on thousands of miles of private land. A similar network of mountain bike clubs could well do the same, it's a great idea.
Vinegar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.