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Old 04-20-2017, 10:35 AM   #61
Buckladd
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Originally Posted by St.Regis View Post
The LEGISLATIVE process is not the way to address these issues.
I agree, I don't like politicians deciding fish and wildlife matters. However, unless a bill is passed to put all such matters in DEC's hands then that's the way it's going to be. These bills will likely resurface outside the budget later this year.

Before the budget delay things were looking good for the Age 12 hunting bill as well as the X-bow, then the AR package came in and added some confusion as to what is important to sportsmen. You've got DEC, the NYS Conservation Council, the Conservation Fund Advisory Board and another sportsman's legislative watchdog group telling legislators there is not an overwhelming demand for ARs. Then, you have the special interest whitetail group, which is very organized, putting their data in front of the legislators telling them a majority of hunters do want them. Again, it's confusing the non-hunting legislators.
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Old 04-28-2017, 11:19 AM   #62
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Letting the herd age a bit allows the deer, especially the bucks, a chance to grow a bit, compete in the rut, which should in theory allow for more genetic diversity at the regional level.
Genetic diversity=poppycock. Hunting used to be simply a tool to regulate the deer population. Thanks to the outdoor channel etc. hunting has changed to be something far different and deer populations take a back seat.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:17 PM   #63
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Genetic diversity=poppycock. Hunting used to be simply a tool to regulate the deer population. Thanks to the outdoor channel etc. hunting has changed to be something far different and deer populations take a back seat.
And before hunting was viewed and used as a tool to control the population hunting was a way for 'sports' to get out with a guide and shoot a few deer and for everyone else to have as much venison as they desired. Scientific and biological advancement have resulted in outlooks changing and smarter hunting practices. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's natural that it would continue.

If not for greater understanding of the impacts of deer hunting the herd would have continued to be completely decimated. Biologists are simply trying to continue down that same path towards an even greater understanding IMO.

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Old 04-28-2017, 03:26 PM   #64
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And before hunting was viewed and used as a tool to control the population hunting was a way for 'sports' to get out with a guide and shoot a few deer and for everyone else to have as much venison as they desired. Scientific and biological advancement have resulted in outlooks changing and smarter hunting practices. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's natural that it would continue.

If not for greater understanding of the impacts of deer hunting the herd would have continued to be completely decimated. Biologists are simply trying to continue down that same path towards an even greater understanding IMO.
So you are suggesting that the biologists are pushing for AR?
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Old 04-28-2017, 04:16 PM   #65
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Im calling BS on this. The herd was not almost decimated in any of out lifetimes. It has continued to increase from the 60`s onward until we have the numbers of today give or take a little each year. This especially applies to the southern tier. The so called new and greater understanding has nothing to do with numbers of deer but perceived quality put forth by people who want to make money. Money by quiding, leasing, & selling land. QDMA & antler restrictions have absolutely nothing to do with conservation & will only lead to the little guy being shut out. Mike
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:36 PM   #66
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So you are suggesting that the biologists are pushing for AR?
Not all at. That's not the point I was trying to make, I was trying to be much more general.. I'm simply pointing out that biologists have given us a better understanding of the things that impact animals. He was reminiscing about and seeming to advocate population control being the only major driving force behind hunting practices and I was just pointing out that there was a time many, many years ago when people would have been complaining about that being considered at all. They too would have been pining for the 'good old days' similar to the way he was. Such is progress, good or bad.

His statement, to me, felt like it was dismissive of of scientific study in general - maybe I'm wrong about that - but my knee-jerk reaction was to point out that biologists have done the hunting community a lot of good at times.


Also mspaci, I was not referring to a time "in our lifetimes". I was thinking of further back. Perhaps I should have been more clear. To say that unchecked and unfettered hunting back when there were absolutely no game laws didn't result in severely impacted population numbers of multiple species would be absurd IMHO. It's one of the primary reasons game laws were established in the first place.

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Old 04-28-2017, 07:06 PM   #67
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Ok I agree that conservation laws have been largely due to scientific studies. These laws are hoped to be good for the general ecosystem, both plants and animals. They ain't perfect but the aim is true.
I would like to here from the proponents of AR how AR is good for the ecosystem. Is there any science here or is it all hubris?
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:19 PM   #68
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yes thats true, agreed. Mike
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Old 04-29-2017, 01:45 AM   #69
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Of course upon rereading and pondering Old Rivers post a bit more it occurs to me he may also have been lamenting the way TV hunting and magazines seem to have exalted the rack over all else. Many times they come across as primarily focused on making deer hunting all about how many points and how massive a rack you can get rather than the actual hunt itself, the venison, or much else. A view of his I don't necessarily disagree with.

It just happened to be that the whole "genetic diversity = poppycock" line and the point about only considering population control jumped out at me right off the bat.

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Old 04-30-2017, 11:24 AM   #70
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Brett: I simply said "Poppycock" meaning B/S. That Genetic diversity explanation is total B/S. The # points or age limit has nothing to do with mature bucks doing their "Thing". Science should be the only policy for establishing deer density with regard to regional carrying capacity. There should be no room for politics especially when sportsmen shell out in some cases nearly $100 for "Privilege" of helping control population with wise management practices. With regard to comment on outdoor channel promoting food plots, team competitive "hunting", etc. the sport of hunting is no longer simply filling the freezer and has taken the real challenge out of what used to be called "Hunting". Just my opinion after 50 years of old fashioned 1 on 1 hunting.
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Old 04-30-2017, 03:42 PM   #71
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Good update on AR in budget process in latest NY Outdoor News (April 21 edition). Says NY Farm Burea is a strong lobby that opposed it. Also says bills are likely to remain stalled in committee. This is good news. No trying to count 3 or 4 points on a side when you jump a buck. Such a bad thing. Let's hope it dies for good.
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:51 AM   #72
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Brett: I simply said "Poppycock" meaning B/S. That Genetic diversity explanation is total B/S. The # points or age limit has nothing to do with mature bucks doing their "Thing". Science should be the only policy for establishing deer density with regard to regional carrying capacity. There should be no room for politics especially when sportsmen shell out in some cases nearly $100 for "Privilege" of helping control population with wise management practices. With regard to comment on outdoor channel promoting food plots, team competitive "hunting", etc. the sport of hunting is no longer simply filling the freezer and has taken the real challenge out of what used to be called "Hunting". Just my opinion after 50 years of old fashioned 1 on 1 hunting.
Thanks for the clarification and explanations. I figured that I had misinterpreted some of what you were trying to say which is the reason I tried to backtrack a bit with my final post. I apologize for that.

I have been one of those sportsmen to hand over $100 to hunt in NY so I know where you are coming from with that. I have also lived and hunted through the implementation of AR in Pennsylvania. I feel it's a much different situation in PA for various reasons, a huge one being that the deer density is much higher per square mile, and I must admit I have seen some positives in the years since, however I've never been completely sold on it there and I personally would hate to see it happen in NY.
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Old 05-01-2017, 07:53 AM   #73
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Thanks for the clarification and explanations. I figured that I had misinterpreted some of what you were trying to say which is the reason I tried to backtrack a bit with my final post. I apologize for that.

I have been one of those sportsmen to hand over $100 to hunt in NY so I know where you are coming from with that. I have also lived and hunted through the implementation of AR in Pennsylvania. I feel it's a much different situation in PA for various reasons, a huge one being that the deer density is much higher per square mile, and I must admit I have seen some positives in the years since, however I've never been completely sold on it there and I personally would hate to see it happen in NY.
What were the positives? I ask sincerely.
Does AR reduce deer densities because you are forced to shoot more Does if you want meat?
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:43 PM   #74
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Brett: I simply said "Poppycock" meaning B/S. That Genetic diversity explanation is total B/S. The # points or age limit has nothing to do with mature bucks doing their "Thing".
Not BS at all, but thank you for being frank. If we take out yearling bucks or even ones 2-3 seasons in, there is going to be a whole lot less competition for the older bucks when the rut comes around. The AR cannot be viewed purely in terms of rack size or antler points. Yes, that may be a factor, but AR programs are usually put in place to promote the growth of older deer.

The young deer population, especially the young bucks, is hammered heavily every fall season in NY. There are only a few who are making it past their 4th season, and those that do usually assert dominance and claim priority for breeding with any local does. I'm agnostic on AR within NY, because I know how tough deer hunting can be on public land in this state. And I'm certainly not at all affiliated with the QDMA. But I do see certain advantages with letting the deer population in general age a bit. I couldn't care less about antler size.

But hunters, as a group, are very adverse to change. If anyone tries to the flip the script, there is usually an uproar. So I'm not surprised to see such animated responses. The NY Legislature's involvement in all of this is what got me concerned, not necessarily the idea of AR programs.


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Science should be the only policy for establishing deer density with regard to regional carrying capacity. There should be no room for politics especially when sportsmen shell out in some cases nearly $100 for "Privilege" of helping control population with wise management practices.
You're right, science should be the foundation for establishing hunting policy. But we all know that is not the reality of hunting in the US. Go look at NY's earlier ban of using hounds for bear. Go look at all the political baggage associated with trapping (here and elsewhere). Go look at California outlawing any sort of hunting of Cougar. Politics has and always will play a role in hunting in the US. There's no way to change that; we all just need to be aware of it.

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