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Old 03-25-2017, 01:33 PM   #21
Cpswing555
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MGC that was a good point about those scrubby ones. Like I said everything has its flaws. Now just to clarify, we have no point restrictions for junior and senior hunters along with active military. So it does not have an effect on kids, but the one problem I am seeing is scubs. I had three spikes go by me in one morning two years ago and four this year. It's almost like you need to drop the restriction every 3 years or so, or make a push for hunters to whack these little scrubs for a couple of years to get them out of the gene pool. Tough to do and hard to pass I know. Just telling you all some of the things I see.

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Old 03-25-2017, 01:49 PM   #22
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I named one of the deer that I had to pass on 2 years ago (during the mandated antler-less bow restriction) Mr. Twister.
He has two prongs facing the front and two facing to the rear....what an odd rack... I saw him a three years ago when he was still an puppy so I know that he's at least a three year old deer....Nice mass, lot's of good venison but not harvestable under an antler restriction... Next year with any kind of luck he'll present a nice 20 yard quartering away shot.........
I will happily use my tag on him.
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:22 PM   #23
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MGC that was a good point about those scrubby ones. Like I said everything has its flaws. Now just to clarify, we have no point restrictions for junior and senior hunters along with active military. So it does not have an effect on kids, but the one problem I am seeing is scubs. I had three spikes go by me in one morning two years ago and four this year. It's almost like you need to drop the restriction every 3 years or so, or make a push for hunters to whack these little scrubs for a couple of years to get them out of the gene pool. Tough to do and hard to pass I know. Just telling you all some of the things I see.

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I think we should give any viable deer an IQ test and only then we can harvest them if they go beyond a certain threshold. The threshold will be described in this year restriction Manuel which is availble in PDf form by clicking here -//-
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:32 PM   #24
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Yes and no....rack hunters will pass until they get the horns the want. The issue is the hunter that wants to put a deer in the freezer that will be forced to pass on 3 and 4 points.....
Young hunters will be especially compromised as will be hunters that cannot devote the amount of time it takes to being that selective.

And selfishly, on my property I have a genetic pool that pushes through two and four horned deer....ugly racks but decent sized deer. I harvest them when they present themselves..... During the antler-less mandate a few years ago I had three of these woeful racks within range during the first week of bow season. I had to let them walk.. I never saw other deer until December...

Let the hunter make the choice and let NYS Senate work on something meaningful that creates jobs, lowers taxes, improves our infrastructure etc.....
I agree.
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:17 PM   #25
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Statewide sportsman's groups are against this, mostly because it remove's DEC's authority. Also in the budget are bills to lower the legal big game hunting age to 12 (rifle/shotgun/crossbow) and also to put crossbow regulations in the hands of DEC, not politicians. This governor is usually on time with the budget so we should know what's up by the end of this week.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:14 PM   #26
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Statewide sportsman's groups are against this, mostly because it remove's DEC's authority. Also in the budget are bills to lower the legal big game hunting age to 12 (rifle/shotgun/crossbow) and also to put crossbow regulations in the hands of DEC, not politicians. This governor is usually on time with the budget so we should know what's up by the end of this week.
Politics aside, I don't think that a 12 year old kid, however precocious, can realize the taking the life of an animal.
That's only my thought, guys.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:35 AM   #27
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Politics aside, I don't think that a 12 year old kid, however precocious, can realize the taking the life of an animal.
That's only my thought, guys.
Jim
I can only speak for myself and in my household guns and hunting were second nature, but with a large amount of due respect. I was more than ready to hunt deer when I was 12 but I admit I had experienced things at that age that my peers had not. I've been out with several 12-year-olds and kids other ages on youth turkey hunts and have seen them react differently to the kill. I think a lot of it has to do with their surroundings up to that point in their life.
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:59 AM   #28
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I agree with Buckladd, some 12 year olds are definitely ready to start deer hunting at 12. It is a function of their exposure growing up and how they were mentored by parents, relatives, friends and taught to handle and respect guns and wildlife.
I also think that there are some 12 year olds who are not ready to be deer hunting at this age. This may be a function of lack of exposure, mentoring and participation in their early years. Supervised hunting as the current youth regulation requires is the correct way to get youth involved.
Going small game hunting with my Dad as soon as I was able to walk behind him and being exposed to trapping at an early age made a big difference for me and my brothers. It was a gift that I will always be thankful to my father for.

As 12 years of age relates to this thread, the last thing our young hunters (whether 12 or 17) need to have forced on them is antler restrictions. This takes away from the hunt and promotes a trophy mentality that says to them small bucks are not trophies when they certainly are.
The bill would impact all hunters 17 and older. Some of my most memorable hunts from the beginning up to the present day resulted in a spike, fork horn or small six pointer that would not have been possible under the proposed AR law. These deer are just as meaningful to my hunting memories as some of the bigger antlered deer I have been blessed to take over the years.
I say let's enable our young hunters to enjoy hunting for the complete hunting experience and that includes the ability to enjoy a successful hunt where they can take a beautiful young buck! Giving only one or two years exemption from AR's does not help them experience the hunt and only teaches the wrong values.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:27 PM   #29
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I don't agree that going after bigger animals, with bigger racks, can necessarily be labeled as a "trophy mentality." And for that matter, I think the "trophy mentality," while it perhaps exists in some form, means a lot of different things to different people. Bear hunters routinely go after the bigger, older boars; perhaps there is a little bit of the "bigger is better" mentality going on, but removing the older boars also gives the younger bears, especially cubs, a better chance to survive, grow and breed. Should we consider this trophy hunting? There are ecological benefits to removing the older animals and giving the younger ones a few more seasons, outside of simple "trophy" motivations.

The same holds true for deer in my opinion. I'd rather take an older buck that has been around the block a few times, than take a young one that has barely had a chance to compete in the rut. The bigger rack is a nice bonus, though it's not something I put too much stock in. I'm sure there are other hunters who are purely focused on the rack size. Either way, there is some ecological benefit to allowing the younger bucks grow a little and taking the older ones out.

I do agree that this AR bill may not be the best way to address this issue.
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Old 03-27-2017, 03:48 PM   #30
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I can only speak for myself and in my household guns and hunting were second nature, but with a large amount of due respect. I was more than ready to hunt deer when I was 12 but I admit I had experienced things at that age that my peers had not. I've been out with several 12-year-olds and kids other ages on youth turkey hunts and have seen them react differently to the kill. I think a lot of it has to do with their surroundings up to that point in their life.
I agree with your post. I also grew up with a respect for firearms and hunting.
My point is that today, few 12 year olds have the conception of taking a life.
They watch video games where death has no consequence, human or otherwise.
I would advocate mature guidance for young hunters.
Jim
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:10 PM   #31
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Many seasoned hunters mature to the point where they seek the challenge of pursuing older age animals. It should be each hunters personal choice and not mandated by law. This bill is rooted in trophy hunting and control of all hunters to get there.
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:31 PM   #32
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Many seasoned hunters mature to the point where they seek the challenge of pursuing older age animals. It should be each hunters personal choice and not mandated by law. This bill is rooted in trophy hunting and control of all hunters to get there.
Control is inside, or should be, of every hunter.
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:33 PM   #33
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Many seasoned hunters mature to the point where they seek the challenge of pursuing older age animals. It should be each hunters personal choice and not mandated by law. This bill is rooted in trophy hunting and control of all hunters to get there.
100% agree.
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:06 PM   #34
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It looks like this issue is being steam-rolled through Albany.
The issue of Outdoor News that I received today explains that in addition to the previously discussed legislation that is in committee this has been somehow tied in to the budget. What a nice backdoor approach for the Whitetail Management Coalition...still unhappy about last years DEC decision to listen to hunter input.
Thanks to heavily lobbied Senator Thomas O'Mara, hunters may lose the right to decide on the deer they choose to harvest.
Bravo...
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:24 AM   #35
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This is very bad news and I hope somehow that it does not pass. It will be a sad day for NYS if deer management decision making is taken away from the DEC and put in the hands of the political class and powerful lobbyists. I sure would like to be able to see what kind of incentives (e.g. cash, hunting rights, property, etc., etc.) were provided to get Mr. O'Mara and other co-sponsors to do their bidding on this bill?

Here is the sad situation if this goes through:
1) Coyotes are killing fawns at an alarming rate as many recent studies have confirmed (as many as 30 to 45 per male coyote each birthing season!).
2) The number of fawns that manage to survive the coyotes is not enough to replenish the herd so the recent decline continues.
3) Too many doe permits are issued on top of coyote kill which only accelerates the decline.
4) Now the prospect of being told you can't take the buck you want because it doesn't have 3 or 4 points on a side.
Sad to say the future is not looking very good for us NY deer hunters.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:44 PM   #36
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Not advocating breaking the law, but the burden will be in enforcing it.
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Old 04-06-2017, 04:21 PM   #37
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Skillzman1 is right, it is tough to enforce. DEC pointed that out last year. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the longer the budget impasse goes on the less likely conservation laws are to be included, including the other two items (crossbows and lower hunting age). Also, much has transpired since the ON article was sent to the printer. Still, anything is possible.
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Old 04-06-2017, 09:32 PM   #38
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This is very bad news and I hope somehow that it does not pass. It will be a sad day for NYS if deer management decision making is taken away from the DEC and put in the hands of the political class and powerful lobbyists. I sure would like to be able to see what kind of incentives (e.g. cash, hunting rights, property, etc., etc.) were provided to get Mr. O'Mara and other co-sponsors to do their bidding on this bill?

Here is the sad situation if this goes through:
1) Coyotes are killing fawns at an alarming rate as many recent studies have confirmed (as many as 30 to 45 per male coyote each birthing season!).
2) The number of fawns that manage to survive the coyotes is not enough to replenish the herd so the recent decline continues.
3) Too many doe permits are issued on top of coyote kill which only accelerates the decline.
4) Now the prospect of being told you can't take the buck you want because it doesn't have 3 or 4 points on a side.
Sad to say the future is not looking very good for us NY deer hunters.
stillhunter,
please post the source/report/names of researchers/dates if possible of #1 and #2 statements.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:16 AM   #39
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There have been a number of recent studies that have started to shed light on the impact of coyotes on fawn whitetail deer. Here are two that have used slightly different methods...

A NY coyote study performed by Dr. J. Frair, SUNY ESF with DEC funding. In the study progress report there is a graph showing data that from the last week of May to end of June coyotes, especially males, feed heavily on fawns. The graph shows mean kills / coyote / per day for both male and female coyotes and how this varies over this timeframe. It shows an average for males that is over 1 fawn/day for most of the birthing season weeks and then drops at the end of June as fawns mature and are able to be more evasive. Doing a rough estimate based on this data over this time period would result in somewhere between 30 to 45 fawn kills during birthing season for mature male coyotes. The study backtracked to the actual kill sites using GPS signals from collared coyotes. Conclusions were drawn upon examining the kill. They backtracked 15 GPS collared coyotes for 2 summers. You can find a progress report on the SUNY-ESF website.

The other study I found interesting was done by Dr. John Kilgo, US F&W Service Research Biologist. They used an interesting technique of vaginal implant transmitters placed in does to signal fawn births. This allowed the researchers to locate the newborn fawns and put radio-collars on them. They tracked about 40 fawns each year for several years. The collar transmitters emitted a signal when the collar was immobile for 4 hours. This enabled them to backtrack and identify the cause of death. DNA found on the fawn was used to determine if the predator was a coyote or another predator. They tracked 216 fawns over seven years. The number of fawns killed by coyotes was much higher than expected, and they concluded that the coyote predation level is high enough to affect deer populations. They found the difference the first week makes in a fawn’s ability to survive a potential coyote attack is significant.

“A lot of other studies may have underestimated the effects of predation by catching fawns that are a week or more older,” says Kilgo. “We’re seeing as much as 75 percent mortality with some populations, with predation results ranging overall in the neighborhood of 50 to 85 percent.” Even at the more conservative average of 75 percent, that is three out of every four fawns being lost to coyotes.
Read more at: http://www.petersenshunting.com/pred...#ixzz4dXD92l41

With these and a number of other similar university studies showing the growing impact of coyotes on fawn deer I think that the key will lie in how the DEC manages the doe take and coyote population. Looking at the coyote migration maps I think they should be viewed similar to other "invasive species".

Getting back to the antler restriction law issue. I think it is likely to create a big distraction and resource drain on the DEC that could reduce their ability to manage the deer population effectively? Hope it doesn't pass.
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Old 04-08-2017, 09:34 AM   #40
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I have always said that QDMA will be our end. Its trophy hunting in disguise. Make no bones about it, thats what it is plain & simple. Its rich guys wanting to control what every one else is doing. Dont shoot a small buck so I can shoot a big one later. All the private land gets leased up, & we have no where to hunt but public. No more knocking on doors or doing summer chores for hunting rights. Thanks QDMA, the money always wins.
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