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Marcellus Shale: An Environmental Disaster In The Making

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  • Marcellus Shale: An Environmental Disaster In The Making

    I'm not sure if forum members are following this story, but it is a huge public health concern for many in New York. To say nothing of the fact that this operation may slag a lot of land and mess up the environment.

    Here are two links to great stories:

    The New York-based Toxics Targeting went through the Department of Environmental Conservation’s own database of hazardous substances spills over the past thirty years. They found 270 cases documenting fires, explosions, wastewater spills, well contamination and ecological damage related to gas drilling. Many of the cases remain unresolved. The findings are contrary to repeated government assurances that existing natural gas well regulations are sufficient to safeguard the environment and public health. The state is considering allowing for gas drilling in the Marcellus Shale watershed, the source of drinking water for 15 million people, including nine million New Yorkers. [includes rush transcript]


    Common Dreams has been providing breaking news & views for the progressive community since 1997. We are independent, non-profit, advertising-free and 100% reader supported. Our Mission: To inform. To inspire. To ignite change for the common good.


    The Democracy Now! video is particularly good and well worth watching.

    I figure it's good to stay informed on this matter so that public resistance to the marcellus shale operation can be mounted.

    Moderator alert: this is a topic that I find interesting and pertinent. However, the mocking and barbed posts and tones will have to go if the debate will be allowed to develop. It's OK if people believe something that is in direct opposition to what you believe. By sticking to the facts rather than denigrating your opponent or their opinions you will be doing a better job at getting your own POV across. I will eliminate as much of the non-pertinent verbiage as I can.
    "Only a nation of unenlightened half-wits could have taken this beautiful place and turned it into what it is today — a shopping mall."

  • #2
    China and Cuba will be drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, off our shores. Who do you think will have a lesser environmental impact, them or the people who want to drill here? Yet when is the last time these groups protested them?

    New York's as well as the country as a whole is in dire economic straights, we are more dependent on foreign oil than ever, and we wonder why.
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    Qam1

    http://www.lowerwolfjaw.com/qam1 - Everything & Anything on the Adirondacks
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    Comment


    • #3
      What about the guy in Candor New York who's well water is now flammable because of the well that was drilled near his house?
      or people whose well water turned black?
      Those are facts, not opinions.

      Originally posted by qam1 View Post
      China and Cuba will be drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, off our shores. Who do you think will have a lesser environmental impact, them or the people who want to drill here? Yet when is the last time these groups protested them?
      Yeah, we should look to China and Cuba for our example. In fact, lets model all our legal and governmental policies on their system. We can just say "well, that's what they do in China and Cuba."

      Actually, there are many many environmental groups protesting Chinese environmental policy, particularly their use of the dirtiest kind of coal power plants. I seem to recall quite a bit of protests happening around the time of the olympics.

      And you can bet that any drilling in American waters will under American jurisdiction and subject to federal regulation.


      Originally posted by qam1 View Post
      New York's as well as the country as a whole is in dire economic straights, we are more dependent on foreign oil than ever, and we wonder why.
      No, we pretty much know why. Too much oil consumption, not enough supply. and supply is going to peak soon and go down, not up. And if you think a the little scraps of natural gas here, or in Alaska, or in the Canadian tar sands, or any other place, will save us, you're wrong. those are all drops in a very big bucket, and the bucket has a big hole in it.

      As for economic arguments, I sure hope the economic benefit will buy chemotherapy for the poor suckers who get poisoned by whatever the hell they're injecting into the ground water (which, by the way, they aren't legally required to disclose, and which isn't really regulated by anyone, so it's a complete mystery)

      By the way, last time we tried to discuss a controversial environmental topic the thread was locked. I certainly hope that won't happen again.
      He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by qam1 View Post
        China and Cuba will be drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, off our shores. Who do you think will have a lesser environmental impact, them or the people who want to drill here? Yet when is the last time these groups protested them?

        New York's as well as the country as a whole is in dire economic straights, we are more dependent on foreign oil than ever, and we wonder why.
        Wow. Okay... Rumor control in 3, 2, 1...

        Qam1, you understand the difference between natural gas and oil right? As I understand it, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with reliance on foreign oil. It has nothing to do with oil at all, in fact.

        Similarly, 'these groups' of 'radical leftists' report environmentally related news pretty consistently irrespective of what nation the news originates from.

        Leaving that aside, your logic seems to go like this: "China and Cuba are gonna slag the planet, so we may as well slag it too. At least we'll have jobs."

        However, you are right that the economic situation in New York is dire. What you seem to be having difficulty realizing is that this dire economy is precisely what is leaving it open to environmental exploitation. These kinds of mining operations don't get considered in a healthy economy, but now the corporados get to make themselves rich by exploiting the local population in the name of 'job creation'. What good is a job that wrecks your health anyway?
        "Only a nation of unenlightened half-wits could have taken this beautiful place and turned it into what it is today — a shopping mall."

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting and very pertinant subject.

          If the discussion remains civil it may very well run 100 posts.

          On the other hand, if it degenerates, well.....

          It's up to you good people.
          The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by hobbitling View Post
            By the way, last time we tried to discuss a controversial environmental topic the thread was locked. I certainly hope that won't happen again.
            Hi Hobbitling. I take your point, but I wonder what's cnotroversial about this? I have to admit I wasn't expecting responses like qam1's.

            Seems pretty straight forward: some big corporations want to use terrible methods to extract a very profitable natural resource at severe costs to the public's health and the environment. They don't care who or what gets hurt as long as they make a buck.

            Am I missing something?
            "Only a nation of unenlightened half-wits could have taken this beautiful place and turned it into what it is today — a shopping mall."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dan H
              Seems pretty straight forward: some big corporations want to use terrible methods to extract a very profitable natural resource at severe costs to the public's health and the environment. They don't care who or what gets hurt as long as they make a buck.

              Am I missing something?
              What your post tells me is

              1) There is no intellectually logical arguments against this project.

              Logical arguments do not contain hyperbole, conjecture and/or slander. When you can only invoke extreme emotional arguments to support your position that pretty much gives away that there is no other basis but raw emotion.

              2) And that emotion, like much of what the environmental movement is based on is clearly more about stopping capitalism then it about saving the environment.


              Originally posted by Dan H
              Qam1, you understand the difference between natural gas and oil right? As I understand it, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with reliance on foreign oil. It has nothing to do with oil at all, in fact.
              Natural gas competes with oil for a variety of things like Home heating, backup generation for wind and solar plants and even vehicle fuels.

              The more sources/bigger supply of natural gas, the more applications will use it instead of petroleum products.

              Being that Natural gas burns much cleaner then oil, that should be a good thing according to the environmentalist, again that’s if it were actually about saving the environment.


              Originally posted by Dan H
              Leaving that aside, your logic seems to go like this: "China and Cuba are gonna slag the planet, so we may as well slag it too. At least we'll have jobs."
              Nope,

              My point is energy, like that found in the gasoline you use to drive thousands of miles back and forth to the Adirondacks every year has to come from somewhere.

              If we are not drilling here, then we must import that energy from somewhere and much of the time that somewhere is in countries whose environmental regulations are lax to say the least.

              Plus, if there isn't cheap energy available here, businesses will move to where it is.

              So all you end up doing is preventing trivial to minimal environmental damage here, while contributing to major environmental damage elsewhere

              Originally posted by Dan H
              However, you are right that the economic situation in New York is dire. What you seem to be having difficulty realizing is that this dire economy is precisely what is leaving it open to environmental exploitation. These kinds of mining operations don't get considered in a healthy economy, but now the corporados get to make themselves rich by exploiting the local population in the name of 'job creation'. What good is a job that wrecks your health anyway?

              Sorry I prefer a more local source (which I didn’t seem to find in your links that supposedly reports “ALL” environmental news)

              From Bradford County Pennsylvania, where production from the Marcellus Shale began in earnest in 2008 see

              Boomtowns: Gas drilling quickly changes smalltown life in Central Pa.

              They don’t sound like people who being exploited to me


              Also see http://www.bestplaces.net/city/Towan...sylvania.aspx#

              Towanda’s (Bradford County’s seat) Air quality, water quality and superfund rankings are all much better than the country's average.

              So much for the idea that these evil corporations are coming in and raping and polluting the area with little regard for the people and environment.


              And one more link to a reasonable editorial from another source:
              New York State: drill, baby, drill!
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              Qam1

              http://www.lowerwolfjaw.com/qam1 - Everything & Anything on the Adirondacks
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              Comment


              • #8
                NEW YORK STATE:drill,baby,drill!- is temporary out of service when I connect to that link.
                ty for informative info. you present on a sensitive subject. Looncry

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ”hobbitling”
                  Facts have no political ideology. Did you actually listen to the segment or read the article before criticizing the facts they state? Kind of hard to debate statements you refuse to listen too.
                  Yes I did, there are few facts in any of them, it’s mostly typical environmentalist scare tactics.

                  You can tell it’s a bunch of propaganda because when ever they talk of environmental damage they show pictures of the Adirondacks which this is no where near where any this drilling will be. Much of Western New York is pretty flat and ugly, so it won’t have the emotional appeal they are trying for so they have try and mislead viewers by showing the Adirondacks. They aren’t drilling at Marcy Dam or Whiteface. That’s not exactly the tactics someone with facts on their side resorts to.

                  But their argument, that because there were a few unrelated environmental problems in some locations the past, therefore we shouldn’t drill anywhere is a flawed one.

                  That’s like saying because one time someone left garbage at a lean-to we should never build another one.

                  Originally posted by ”hobbitling”
                  Like the guy in Candor New York who's well water is now flammable because of the well that was drilled near his house? or people whose well water turned black?
                  Those are facts, not opinions.
                  We don’t know if they are facts or not, there’s nothing substantiating any of these claims.

                  But what are facts is if you look up Candor, New York

                  Best Places to Live | Compare cost of living, crime, cities, schools and more.


                  (Click “Health”)

                  Their Air Quality, Water Quality and Super fund rankings are all much better than the average of the whole country.

                  In fact, Candor's water quality is better then that of Keene’s here in the Adirondacks!!!!!!!! So you are better off drinking water from Cador than the “pristine” waters of the Adirondacks. (Air quality and Super fund rankings are also the same as Keene)


                  Originally posted by ”hobbitling”
                  No, we pretty much know why. Too much oil consumption, not enough supply. and supply is going to peak soon and go down, not up. And if you think a the little scraps of natural gas here, or in Alaska, or in the Canadian tar sands, or any other place, will save us, you're wrong.
                  The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. -- Paul Ehrlich - The Population Bomb (1968)

                  “By the year 2000...the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America and Australia, will be in famine,” Peter Gunter, North Texas State University, The Living Wilderness, Spring 1970.

                  Under the greenhouse effect, extreme weather increases. Depending on where you are in terms of the hydrological cycle, you get more of whatever you’re prone to get. New York can get droughts, the droughts can get more severe and you’ll have signs in restaurants saying “Water by request only.” - James Hansen 1988


                  I have dozens of more

                  Every environmental / we are running out of xxx resource prediction has without exception failed to come true,

                  With that track record of consistent failure there’s no reason to believe the peak oil ones are any different.


                  Originally posted by ”hobbitling”
                  those are all drops in a very big bucket, and the bucket has a big hole in it.
                  60 Years of natural gas which is estimated to be in the Marcellus Shale is more than a “drop”


                  Originally posted by ”hobbitling”
                  As for economic arguments, I sure hope the economic benefit will buy chemotherapy for the poor suckers who get poisoned by whatever the hell they're injecting into the ground water
                  An emotional argument not back up by facts. See the Air, Water, Superfund rankings above.

                  Originally posted by ”hobbitling”
                  (which, by the way, they aren't legally required to disclose, and which isn't really regulated by anyone, so it's a complete mystery)
                  This simply is not correct.

                  In the link in the OP, how would they know there’s Radon if it’s a “complete mystery” and they don’t have to “legally disclose” their findings?

                  See also http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...qO1ScUnguB1AlM

                  Paterson's report shoots down alarmist green claims that drilling in the watershed puts the city's water supply at risk. Instead it insists on sensible environmental regulations specifically tailored to hydraulic fracturing drilling -- such as extensive testing of water wells near drilling sites, disclosure of which chemicals are used to extract gas buried deep underground and strict plans for wastewater disposal.

                  It also demands that extra care be taken for drilling in the watershed and establishes buffer zones around its reservoirs and aqueducts. Reasonable enough. In all, the Paterson review shows that energy production and environmental protection need not be mutually exclusive.
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                  Qam1

                  http://www.lowerwolfjaw.com/qam1 - Everything & Anything on the Adirondacks
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                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Marcellus Shale is the largest natural gas field in the United States and one of the largest in the world.


                    Once upon a time I remember following my geologist father over PA..there was so much oil drilling back then but it was already on the decline.

                    Its amazing how effective fear is as a marketing tool.. Not only for environmental concerns but in our daily life. We buy many things to prevent bad things from happening to us.

                    Political arguments IMO are always rooted in fear.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oftentimes in these internet debates each side has a pre-determined spin or take on things and goes and digs up the references that jive with their spin, adds some more spin, takes a jab at their opponent and somehow that is supposed to solve something.


                      Read my note appended to the first post.
                      The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As long as they're careful and don't drill near water sources I'm all for it. Hopefully they will learn from these few mistakes. Our area here needs an economic boost with all the manufacturing jobs lost in the last year. Put some money in people's pockets and they will spend it. If they approach me about my land I will join one of the public groups around here that have been approached and learn all the facts so I can make an informed decision. I don't think this will end up being an environmental concern. There is probably much, much more damage done to the environment just by people spilling gas when they fill up their tanks than this will ever produce. I say go for it without delay until alternative energies can be smartly developed rather than shoving cap and trade down our throats when those alternatives are not feasible yet. We need a transition and it seems like this is it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Does anyone know the amount of $$$$ that are paid to the landowners for the mineral rights/drilling contract?
                          Even small landowners are eligible for a piece of the pie.
                          The drilling companies take a"section", say a hundred acres, then divide the royalties by the acre, so the more acres you own in a section, the larger your cut.

                          But with hydro fracturing I wonder about the water well problems for small towns and rural folks and farms.
                          On November 30 Cornell Cooperative Extension is running symposium in Owego.
                          See ya there....
                          Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

                          When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
                          Henry David Thoreau

                          CL50-#23

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                          • #14
                            My family and I own land in Tioga county Penna are being offered 1500/acre for a 5 year lease with 15% payment for royalties if gas is found. Lease payments in the past have ranged anywhere from $25 to $4,000 an acre depending on when you signed and what the economy was doing. Supposedly, lease payments will not rise much above the 1500/acre level but who knows. When we were approached several years, we were being offered a couple of hundred dollars an acre and passed on the deal. It appears that the gas company has signed or is in the process of signing all of our neighbors. They live up there year round. For most people living in the area, the money is hard to resist. Our one neighbor owns 250 acres. Thats $375,000 in a poor county. We only own 10 acres (owned the land for over 30 years) and its our vacation retreat so its a little easier for us to say no but if everyone else signs there is going to be activity in the area. We have not made a decision but think we can use the money to help pay our bills on the property and help with upkeep; for example we need a new roof on our cabin. Its can easy to make judgements and criticise those signing leases but if you spend anytime in Tioga county, you can see how many people are living paycheck to paycheck and struggling to get by.

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                            • #15
                              BTW, Tioga county economy is being helped by all of this. Around Mansfield PA, all the motels are booked and restaurants are busy. All with people associated with the gas deals and drilling. My nephew and his girlfirend graduate from Mansfield University in May. Her parents cannot find a motel room anywhere to come up the night before graduation.

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