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Old 12-30-2009, 01:00 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Scenic New York View Post
WHOA..they're looking at doing this in Allegany?! Geez, and they had fights over the snowmobile trails.
No matter what the outcome, the lesson to be learned is "don't buy the surface rights for land to be used as a state park if you aren't also buying the mineral rights."

I can imagine that when the surface rights were sold to the state the owners of the mineral rights thought "they want to put a state park over our oil and gas?"
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:53 PM   #82
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Yes very salty water. The plants being considered in PA are going to use reverse osmosis to desalinate the water. I am not sure where NY would truck the water too since PA does not have enough capacity to process its own frac water. The plant under review in Tunkhannock PA will be able to process 1.3 million gallons of frac water a day and its estimated that 2 million gallons will be produced by drillers in the area. So every day frqac water will need to be stored somehwere. They are looking are re-using the treated frac water in drilling operations and some will be dumped into the Chemung River. There is naturally occuring radiation in the shale. treating the frac water will concentrate it.

BTW Charirock, Its beautiful in the finger lakes. I love visiting that area. I was just up there over christmas
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:02 PM   #83
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What business of what we do here in New York (or Texas, Montana, or where ever else this shale is) is it of a Massachusetts Representive? Even if all the horror stories of what will happen comes true, it will have no bearing on his district in Boston. He's not representing the people of Western NY, they didn't vote for him. Why does he get a say?
#1, as stated by a previous poster, he is Chair of the Subcommittee on Energy and the Environment. Here's his website: http://markey.house.gov/ Since the feds might just get called in to deal with the cleanups, I think it should be a federal issue (a la superfund sites). If tax payers end up helping to foot the bill should an "accident" cause catostrophic results, the federal goverment should probably have a look at what's going on. Not saying that will/would happen, but it's their jobs to look at the possiblities. So he's doing what he's supposed to be doing-looking into things his committee overseas.

#2, as I understand it, this is mostly going to happen in Cental and Southern NY, not Western NY. A good hunk of WNY is not above the Marcellus Shale, we're just hanging out up here dealing with other "great" business practices that left their legacies on our soil.

I understand that we all need to heat our homes, cook our food and run our businesses but I'm not drinking the koolaid especially if I don't know what's in it! Is it really too much to ask that we don't mortgage our childrens and grandchildrens futures for some cheap gas now? Look at the legacies left to this generation, just in NY. PCBs in the hudson, Love Canal in the Falls, countless brownfields, superfund sites and places that need remediation (and places that will forever be contaminated, like the LOOW and the mound of fenced off ground in what was Love Canal). I can't see the problem in saying "whoa, what a minute. You want to put some unknown substance into the ground where my drinking water comes from, where I grow corn for my cattle that feed people in the country, where I grow grapes to make wine that people drink? Prove to me what's in it and it's safe. Prove to me that in 20 years my kids won't be asking why everyone has health problems and is sick. Prove to me that in 40 years my grandkids won't be footing the bill to clean up your mess." And the only way to prove it is to publish the ingredients.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:12 PM   #84
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Allegedly, the fracking takes place well below the location of peoples wells. Just don't tell that to the people in Dimok PA who lost their wells to methane and are now suing Cabot Oil.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:21 PM   #85
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Allegedly, the fracking takes place well below the location of peoples wells. Just don't tell that to the people in Dimok PA who lost their wells to methane and are now suing Cabot Oil.
Sure it does. A couple to a few thousand feet down. A water well can be a couple of hundred feet down. So the fracking takes place within a couple of thousand feet of a water well. That seems far enough to me,NOT!

And if the well casing is compromised then what?

And it is not just my drinking water, what about the water used for dairy farms?
Don't cows drink water too? Frack water in your kids milk?
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:23 PM   #86
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This sure has potential for jobs- drilling ,trucking, water purification.Not to mention all the extra need for health care workers due to cancer rates increasing , if houses start blowing up we'll have some contruction jobs opening up, and don't forget the funeral homes,we'll probably need some more of them.

Yes sir,the future sure is bright,here in New York State.
Mostly short term jobs that will leave a mess after they leave...
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:19 PM   #87
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From the EPA's comments, linked from backwoodsman's link:
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However, we have concerns regarding potential impacts to human health and the environment that we believe warrant further scientific and regulatory analysis. Of particular concern to EPA are issues involving water supply, water quality, wastewater treatment operations, local and regional air quality, management of naturally occurring radioactive materials disturbed during drilling, cumulative environmental impacts, and the New York City watershed.
Yeah, drill baby drill!
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:48 PM   #88
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Paddlewheel, you do not have to read this thread. The drilling may not be affecting the adirondacks but it can and is having an impact on the forests of Penna. Go online and look. There are miles and miles and miles of trails in Penna and some of us happen to hike on them.
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:32 AM   #89
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$57,000 a year! That is a good lease!OMG!

Here is an interesting anti-fracking website out of Ithaca.
Lots of links make for a long read.
http://www.shaleshock.org/
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Old 01-02-2010, 03:38 PM   #90
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Yeah! I'm the 100th post.... now I vote to close this thread.
I second that motion Dustin. These type of threads raise too many tempers and hurt too many feelings.
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Old 01-02-2010, 04:31 PM   #91
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As a moderator I've been keeping an eye on this thread - while it isn't always a pleasant topic, and there are loads of opinions and viewpoints, for the most part this discussion has been within the acceptable boundaries of this section of the forum, so unless it goes downhill from here, I see no reason to close it at this point.
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Old 01-02-2010, 04:43 PM   #92
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As a moderator I've been keeping an eye on this thread - while it isn't always a pleasant topic, and there are loads of opinions and viewpoints, for the most part this discussion has been within the acceptable boundaries of this section of the forum, so unless it goes downhill from here, I see no reason to close it at this point.
What he said.

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Old 01-02-2010, 06:21 PM   #93
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I agree that it is very important.

I also think that it is very important to keep a dialog going with all of the concerned parties.
I can learn from ppl with other factually based opinions, as I hope they can also learn from from others with different viewpoints.
As I said earlier, statements based on just feelings don't do much for either side of this issue.

I don't have enough info to decide yet totally, but I do know that there is no going back once drilling starts on the Marcellus formation.Hence I vote for no drilling YET!
Many ppl have signed leases and are looking at huge windfalls, but at what expense to others down the road....
We have seen the damages done inother areas...

The gas will still be there in the future...

Don't rush.....
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:36 PM   #94
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Yes, in NY there is still time. In Penna, however, its basically a done deal. Lots of drilling in Bradford and Tioga counties. You cannot buy land in these counties with the mineral rights. The state is leasing state game lands for drilling. There are people reaping windfalls in PA. My cousin is one of them. I also heard of some elderly farmers outside of Mansfield PA that are getting monthly royalties in the 5 digit range. Not too bad for a couple who have kept a dairy farm going their entire lives. Who knows what the long term envirnomental repercussions will be? Its scary though when you read about the chemicals used in fracking, radiation released in frack water, difficulties in treating frack water, releasing of frack water into our streams and rivers, disposition of the sediment from treated frack water etc. The drilling will not affect the ADK's and Catskills where most of the people on this forum hike but it will have a major impact on the forests, lakes and rivers in other beautiful areas such as the finger lakes and the forests of north central PA.
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:26 PM   #95
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Eventually it will affect the Adirondacks and Catskills.As wild places disappear outside of these areas,more pressure will be put on them.

I posted a link to aerial photos of drilling in Allegheny National Forest earlier in this thread. Does anyone live near these areas and possibly have photos of any of these sites?
I looked at the photos on the link. If that happened to Allegany State Park, whatever portion of the forest there that is covered with a network of roads, parking lots, retention ponds, drilling work areas, etc. would be lost to most recreational use for many years. This reinforces my opinion that mining must not be allowed in ASP. Thanks for the link.
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:50 PM   #96
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I live semi-close to Allegany and will poke around down the PA way next time we're down there, but it might be a while (few months). We were just down there a few weeks ago but we stayed on the NY side as usual.

I appreciate keeping this topic open. Had I not seen this, I wouldn't have even heard about this very important issue. I've passed along some info to others that could be more directly effected now as well. It has also had a serious effect on our possible house hunt-we will no longer be looking in the southtowns because I'm tired of worrying about CWM, LOOW and AES here, I don't need unknowns there. At least here I have some idea of where is good and where is bad!

backwoodsman, your sig always makes me think of a Native American proverb/saying:

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:36 AM   #97
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http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/a...059989/-1/news

Fracking water is being trucked to Watertown NY for treatment and then is getting relseased into the Black River
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:57 AM   #98
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Daxs, thanks for the link. Having grown up and still living about 10 miles from Niagara Falls' infamous Love Canal toxic waste dump, I am perhaps more wary of the long-term effects of pollution than most. I know that we cannot accept as true the information that a company releases to the public about the contents of effluent and other waste products. New York State residents need to be very wary of the entire hydrofracking process, slow down the applications to build these mine complexes on our land, and examine what will be the legacy of those operations so our descendents don't have to suffer the consequences like we do now in Western New York.
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:02 PM   #99
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Sadly for WNY, Love Canal was merely the tiniest tip of the iceburg when it comes to legacies. There was a trailer park that you could see from the Robert Moses in the Falls that was about as bad. My better half used to work with someone that lived there before it was fenced off a few years back. She always said she'd die from something other than natural causes because of that place, heard she passed away about 5 years ago, from cancer. I believe it's been "remidiated" now, if you can really believe that (you'd never catch me living in Black Creek-formerly Love Canal). Then there's the old Durez in NT, the Wurlitzer plant, what was Buffalo Bolt (I never saw them do the remidiation there, but I was in there before they took it back as a cleanup site, when the junkyard was in there-leaking barrles of stuff all over, oil slicks on the ground-scary place). Don't forget the Praxair plant in Tonawanda, with it's left overs from the Manhatten project. Which reminds me, there's the Lake Ontario Ordiance Works (LOOW) and CWM in Lewiston. Heard that Modern just filed suit against the town because it found some old barrels from Hooker on the property it got from the town (former town dump). NT had some issues at Gratwick Riverside park (another former town dump) back a few years ago, had to "remediate" that too. Lockport had some places that it was working on, can't recall where, since they don't really make more than a quick blurb on the news if that. I'm certain there's plenty more I'm missing.

Back when all this land was contaminated, the companies swore the stuff was safe. No problem to bury it in the town landfill, store it in drums on the property...

Love Canal happened because people believed the companies who said the toxins were non-toxic, and mostly forgot about them after they were buried. They filled in the ditch, and nature tried her best to heal. Then they built homes there. What will happen to these "fracked" sites in 40 or 50 years, after people forget and nature covers them with trees and grass? New Love Canals all over the east coast?

I can't see any reason to believe these companies now, saying the same thing Hooker and even the goverment (Manhatten Project) must have said back then. Once land is contaminated, it's contaminated. Even if it's "remidiated" the contaminents have to go somewhere (there's a 10 acre "cell" holding some of the legacy form the Manhatten project somewhere on the LOOW land for instance). I really can't understand why anyone (other than the guys running the companies that don't live anywhere near here) wouldn't want a full disclosure and complete and open testing by independant sources. This has the potential of leaving a pretty ugly legacy.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:36 AM   #100
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Yet, more miscommunication...

http://www.pressconnects.com/article...fracking-waste
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