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#21 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,587
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#22 |
Kayak-46
![]() Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,891
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I don't think it is possible to actually "kill" the environment, no matter how hard you lean to the right.
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The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun. |
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#23 |
ember
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,147
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Old Rivers,
Here is your chance to come clean... Are you the guy who planted the Bass in Little Tupper?
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The fishing was really good for 10,000 years... |
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#24 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,297
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#25 | |
ɹǝqɯǝɯ
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,402
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In planning some trips down south, I found this interesting tidbit in a hiking guidebook for the Monongahela National Forest:
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#26 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2
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So much for if you build ORV trails they will stay on them and not ride where they are not supposed to |
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#27 | |
ɹǝqɯǝɯ
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,402
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Quote:
In contrast, on an ATV trail, you generally don't see the same thing happening where the trail passes through muddy spots. ATV users don't instinctively spread out like hikers do, so ATV trails often tend to remain the same width, regardless of how bad the mud and water gets. Of course, the impact from a single ATV is likely to be a heck of a lot higher than the impact from a single hiker- so even without spreading out, ATV trails are likely going to be a lot more impacted than hiking trails. |
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#28 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,587
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#29 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,842
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I concur, why get off and move a tree limb when it is so much easier to ride around it? It is only natural.
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"A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden |
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#30 |
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,933
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Seems to me that some people have difficulty in comprehending why the first four letters in wilderness spells "WILD".
I seriously think that people who use motorized means to explore the wilderness have no idea of the satisfaction that comes from reaching a remote area by the use of ones own labor. And for those of us that do, we don't deserve to have those moments interrupted by the roar or the whine of a motorized vehicle nor the pungent smell of gasoline fumes.
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"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson |
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#31 | ||
ɹǝqɯǝɯ
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,402
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I wasn't attempting to make any broad claims about overall impacts of ATVs and/or hikers, just pointing out a funny little intricacy of two differing types of outdoor recreation. ![]() |
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#32 |
Indian Mt.Club
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,631
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I've seen the degradation of the original herd paths that make up the new South Shore section of the CL50 since it became a official trail.
As herd paths ,the trails from Chair Rock Creek on the east, and the trail from Six Mile Creek from the west,both to the new cut trail over the hill, have gone downhill since hikers/backpackers have increased the number of footprints. Wider trails around mud is the most common problem. It is in our human nature,no matter how we try, to leave our TRACE..... Death by a thousand small cuts... and I admit I am part of the problem,as we all are.
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Be careful, don't spread invasive species!! ![]() When a dog runs at you,whistle for him. Henry David Thoreau CL50-#23 |
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#33 | |
Moving along
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,942
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![]() Do you have any 'before & after' photos of the destruction by any chance? Would be nice to see the contrast. |
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#34 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,587
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An ATV operator is riding through the mud, not walking through it, and therefore the "issue" is somewhat mitigated for him. I on the other hand have nothing between me and the mud than my boots and gaiters, and I would not walk through a deeply wet and muddy wallow for the same reason I wouldn't walk through a knee-deep creek with my boots on. So what a rider might see as "normal" I see as "degradation." It's like a hill on a road: when you drive up it in your car it doesn't seem that bad, but when you try to pedal a bike up it, it looks like Everest. In 2003 I came across two ATVs parked in a foot trail in the Watson's East Triangle Wild Forest. Without rehashing all the details, I had an interesting conversation with one of the riders. We were standing in a muddy area, not yet impassable, but I do recall there being more than one set of tracks because there was no obvious way through -- it was a sprawling patch of mud. In the Adirondacks you frequently encounter patches of ground that simply can't drain water very well, and this was one of them. He asked me where I saw ATV damage, and bewildered I gestured around us at what was an obvious scene of ATVs chewing up a sensitive area, with no boot prints to be seen. He said that all he saw was a trail. So where I saw damage, he saw business as usual. Same visual evidence, different interpretation. So yes, an ATV rider sees a small amount of mud as a non-issue because he can just power through it -- and he will probably see some amount of mud as par for the course, actually. But when the rider perceives that his ATV could get stuck or damaged by a mud wallow that has become too deep, then the same instinct that you and I possess will kick in for him as well. Therefore it's not that ATV riders have different instincts than the rest of the human race, just a higher tolerance for mud. And it is precisely that higher tolerance for mud that in my view makes ATVs incompatible with most other forms of backcountry recreation. My blood pressure starts to rise at even the slightest evidence of tire tracks in a foot trail; the situation has to become quite dire before an ATV rider takes notice. |
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#35 | |
Indian Mt.Club
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,631
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Has it degraded? Yes... The question to some would be how much... Has it turned into a major ecological disaster? Probably not by popular standards...whatever they are.. Have I seen a downturn? yes... When only a dozen families use a trail for a weeks vacation, as opposed to the hundreds who have done the CL50... I do see more wear and tear on the trail... We, my wife and I, walk that trail a few times a week with our dogs,we are there from shortly after ice out tii water pipe problems in the fall... 5- 6 months... Is it a major problem, NO, but it is a death of a thousand cuts.... We rarely run into hikers, we use the trail early in the morning. As I said, we are all part of the problem... or ....we are parasites on this planet....
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Be careful, don't spread invasive species!! ![]() When a dog runs at you,whistle for him. Henry David Thoreau CL50-#23 |
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#36 |
Moving along
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,942
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Thanks Chairrock,
Makes perfect sense to me. I too have seen the impact of a little used foot path that has been turned into a popular DEC marked hiking trail. Sometimes you're happy that the trail is a little easier to follow, sometimes you wish that it wasn't. I agree that humans leave their impact on the environment, which is fine by me. Machines make it much easier to do. |
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#37 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 3,687
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"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman |
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#38 | |
ɹǝqɯǝɯ
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,402
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#39 | |
Moving along
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,942
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I have seen impacts that may or may not have resulted directly from information that I've posted publicly on this forum. I've since tried not to get too specific publicly, and keep the details to pm's. I've always had the weakness of enjoying conversations with others about areas that I've visited, so sometimes its difficult for me not to respond to a question that I may be able to help out with. Have made some good hiking friends that way. |
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#40 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Keene, NY
Posts: 409
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This a position that many people agree with, and needs to be continually mentioned in these discussions. Everyone CAN use state lands, but that does not mean that everyone can use them however the heck they want. This is not some new, strange or rare concept either. This is something we encounter every day of our lives, everywhere we go. Everyone can use the streets in our towns, for example, but that doesn't mean you can do whatever the heck you want on those streets. Same idea applies to any public space, and most private spaces too! |
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