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Marcellus Shale: An Environmental Disaster In The Making

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  • Expert sayds ohio earthquake not natural from fracking

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    • I think hawk has it right the big rush is due to the synergy between the drive for job creation and profits more than the desire to pollute the environment as fast as possible.


      And just to keep the facts straight the US is a net importer of Natural Gas not a net exporter.



      However if prices continue to be depressed in the States it will find a home elsewhere.

      I'm shocked we aren't adapting to this resource. Actually I'm not, keep burning 3 cords of wood every winter, that's clean and renewable and great for the environment. I mean who doesn't love new growth forest.

      Considering the amount of energy that New York imports I think it's specious to say the resource isn't needed.
      A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

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      • Many wells these days can harvest dry NatGas or liquids like Oil or LNG. So they are moved based on economics to different plays. Oil right now is more profitable because Nat Gas isn't used in cars and is difficult to shipto China or Europe as gasoline or liquified nat gas (NatGas as a percentage of Oil is very historically cheap right now). Or those wells aren't producing enough to run, or maybe they are test wells. The next big fight will be over LNG exporting facilities over the next decade.

        When all the nat gas is used up we will have to find a replacement just like when we found the nat gas. The same conundrum is found in the future for everything that is consumed.

        Coal and Oil are worse to burn pollution wise, that is a fact. More tests would be great but it appears from the arguments here and elsewhere it won't matter how many tests are done folks' minds are made up.
        Last edited by Pumpkin QAAD; 01-04-2012, 05:02 PM.
        A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

        Comment


        • Why do these arguments always come down to an all or nothing us vs. them proposition?

          Is natural gas better than coal for the atmosphere-Yes.

          Has natural gas been in the ground for several million years-Yes.

          Will it be there tomorrow, next year, next millenia?-Yes

          So why not take the time to find out more and do it right? What is a year or two when the commodity markets change from week to week?

          I for one would be glad to see coal go, but not at the expense of the groundwater. But, I think with more science and a little more cost (god forbid) we could get this right for a change.
          “Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
          ― Cormac McCarthy

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          • No need to drag religion into this!!! just kidding!

            Fracking has been going on a large scale since the 60's. I think the first commercial fracking was done in '49.

            I'm not sure that qualifies as a rush even by government standards. It's just there hasn't been the demand in place because it's more difficult to transport and store vs. say oil or coal.
            A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

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            • The kind of fracking that has been done on a large scale for several decades is very different than the high volume slickwater horizontal hydrofracturing that is currently the center of controversy. My understanding is that this method of hydrofracking was developed relatively recently, and that it uses many times the resources (water) and a different chemical/proppant mixture than the vertically hydrofracked wells that are all over the Southern Tier. I don't think its valid to compare them regarding their safety and potential environmental impact.

              Its a tough call at any rate. Many people in the Southern Tier are in bad straits, and a lot of the towns in the toughest shape don't have too many opportunities (like say tourism) for folks to make money. I do think it is safe to say that at this point we really don't know much at all (in the sense of numerous, rigorous scientific studies done on the process) about the potential impacts of fracking. There is lots of hyperbole and misinformation on both sides of the debate.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
                Many wells these days can harvest dry NatGas or liquids like Oil or LNG. So they are moved based on economics to different plays. Oil right now is more profitable because Nat Gas isn't used in cars and is difficult to shipto China or Europe as gasoline or liquified nat gas (NatGas as a percentage of Oil is very historically cheap right now). Or those wells aren't producing enough to run, or maybe they are test wells. The next big fight will be over LNG exporting facilities over the next decade.

                When all the nat gas is used up we will have to find a replacement just like when we found the nat gas. The same conundrum is found in the future for everything that is consumed.

                Coal and Oil are worse to burn pollution wise, that is a fact. More tests would be great but it appears from the arguments here and elsewhere it won't matter how many tests are done folks' minds are made up.
                There is the heart of the matter. Many people say that the chemicals are dangerous, the drilling companies say they're safe, but most won't reveal what they are. No one can possibly know if it's safe or not so until they do they should be opposed.

                My mind is made up to the extent that until scientific studies are conducted by a third party that has nothing to lose or gain can prove that the process is safe and that it is a 100% guarantee that the process will not effect the health of citizens, I don't want it allowed.

                I don't think that is unreasonable nor is it closed minded.
                "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                Comment


                • Originally posted by backwoodsman
                  Exactly.

                  I think they want to get in and going on the fracking as quick as possible,before all the problems with it are known and have time to develop in other places.

                  I like the argument that fracking has been going on safely for decades,which maybe true, and correct me if I'm wrong,, but it wasn't chemically laced High Volume Hydraulic Fracturing that was being used.
                  As a matter of fact I talked to a water well driller yesterday who worked as a mechanic for a gas company. He told me that the drilling of vertical wells in the state has involved fracturing with the same chemicals used for horizontal fracking.He questioned why people would be upset about fracking horizontally when the vertical wells are fracked the same way with very little opposition.Perhaps a misinformed public on the way gas is extracted from vertical wells?

                  Comment


                  • I don't think a "water well driller who worked as a mechanic for a gas company" is necessarily a reliable or informed source. If he was a gas driller who recently worked on both vertically and horizontally fracked wells then maybe, but I think its a big leap to assume that every low-level employee of a gas company has accurate knowledge of what's in fracking fluid.

                    I have heard differently, but honestly I'm not sure the sources I got this info from are any more reliable as to having accurate, firsthand knowledge of what is in fracking fluid and how the fluids used in vertical and horizontal fracking compare. There is a TON of junk information out there presented by the anti fracking camp, I think just as much as what the gas industry is feeding us.

                    One thing that is known though is that horizontal fracking uses vastly more fracking fluid than vertical drilling, so more of these chemicals are being pumped into the earth. Upthread someone posted that these chemicals are no more dangerous than laundry detergent.* The amount of any given substance is an important part of its toxicity equation, and there is no question these chemicals will be used in large amounts as part of the horizontal fracking process. A drop of laundry detergent in your glass of water probably won't hurt you, but stir a tablespoon in there and see what happens.

                    *The article linked to by that poster notes that some of these chemicals are not considered safe for any level of exposure, despite the fact that they are widely used.
                    Last edited by Frhill; 01-05-2012, 07:03 AM. Reason: Added note

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Frhill View Post
                      I don't think a "water well driller who worked as a mechanic for a gas company" is necessarily a reliable or informed source. If he was a gas driller who recently worked on both vertically and horizontally fracked wells then maybe, but I think its a big leap to assume that every low-level employee of a gas company has accurate knowledge of what's in fracking fluid.

                      I have heard differently, but honestly I'm not sure the sources I got this info from are any more reliable as to having accurate, firsthand knowledge of what is in fracking fluid and how the fluids used in vertical and horizontal fracking compare. There is a TON of junk information out there presented by the anti fracking camp, I think just as much as what the gas industry is feeding us.

                      One thing that is known though is that horizontal fracking uses vastly more fracking fluid than vertical drilling, so more of these chemicals are being pumped into the earth. Upthread someone posted that these chemicals are no more dangerous than laundry detergent.* The amount of any given substance is an important part of its toxicity equation, and there is no question these chemicals will be used in large amounts as part of the horizontal fracking process. A drop of laundry detergent in your glass of water probably won't hurt you, but stir a tablespoon in there and see what happens.

                      *The article linked to by that poster notes that some of these chemicals are not considered safe for any level of exposure, despite the fact that they are widely used.
                      If you work on rigs you talk to drillers and if you're curious you ask questions which is what this guy did.This in my mind makes him far more informed than most of the public.I will agree that the volume used is definitly different but not the composition of the fluids.Frankly,at this point I could care less whether they decide to drill or not.I won't be disappointed if they decide not to and I won't be paranoid if they decide to. I am in an area where I would be approached by a gas company and could make money from it.I just want to see this country developing more of it's own energy rather than importing it.I also would prefer we use the the oil and gas we are extracting rather than exporting it.We have $3.50 a gallon gas and oil and natural gas are our largest exports? This I find disturbing.

                      Comment


                      • Apoligies if I am being political or offensive I do not see how this topic can be discussed otherwise.
                        Since this post there have been quite a few more (do the arithmetic, it's easy ) with no politics and nothing offensive.

                        I believe it is possible to discuss the subject with a few limitations: no personal or offensive posts and no politics.
                        The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

                        Comment


                        • The US doesn't reallly export Oil and Natural Gas, refined products like Gasoline are exported however.

                          I was the one who posted the detergent link, my main point was those are substances that are going into the water table as opposed to 8,000 feet under it. Yes the technique has evolved from the first well and they can frack rock that they could not in the past but there is plenty of history as to the process.

                          I would like the government to say drilling in the gulf of mexico or Alaska's North Slope is a 100% risk-free by a third party that is fully confessed, is ordained and is a female Eunich before they allow it.

                          Just because Joe public just found out about the cause du jour doesn't make it new.

                          There should be a hurdle for safety, but that hurdle should not be set at an impassable height in the auspices of not outrightly banning the process.

                          I agree with the comment that the timing of tapping the resource is an important decision but then again the government nor the people own that right to decide.
                          Last edited by Pumpkin QAAD; 01-05-2012, 11:04 AM.
                          A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rollinslover64 View Post
                            If you work on rigs you talk to drillers and if you're curious you ask questions which is what this guy did.This in my mind makes him far more informed than most of the public.I will agree that the volume used is definitly different but not the composition of the fluids.Frankly,at this point I could care less whether they decide to drill or not.I won't be disappointed if they decide not to and I won't be paranoid if they decide to. I am in an area where I would be approached by a gas company and could make money from it.I just want to see this country developing more of it's own energy rather than importing it.I also would prefer we use the the oil and gas we are extracting rather than exporting it.We have $3.50 a gallon gas and oil and natural gas are our largest exports? This I find disturbing.
                            The caveat here is "I talked to a guy who talked to drillers...." And those drillers are being paid to drill those wells.

                            I rest my case.
                            "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                            Comment


                            • Ok here's what we can do to prevent Fracking through capitalism. **This is just a cheeky example I am not suggesting anyone do this**.

                              First raise money through donations for the preservation of life and drinking water. Our slogan will be "What, you don't like Life???"

                              Second use 3/4 of the money raised to short the stock of a leasing Marcellus Shale E&P and long NatGas futures. Use 1/4 of the money to lobby Pennsylvania and NY Legislative and Executive branches to create a safety provision to Fracking that is impossible to meet. Say 100% guarantee (with cash bond) that no accidents will ever occur or no water can be used in the process.

                              The lease drillers will go out of business because they won't be able to pay the leases without revenue and you will make a fortune and inflated land prices plummet. The environment stays clean and you can buy the land up cheap with the profits and hire all the workers from the gas industry as registered Guides for the new Marcellus Wild Forest stretching from the Catskills to the Poconos. At the center of this MWF will be the Marcellus Brewery, Whiskey Distillery and Casino. Key Brands will be the MWF Black Cougar a dark pilsner and the "Hyrdro-Frack", containing locally sourced organic ingredients for one of the best single-malt "scotch" like whiskies that is aged in recycled oak barrels. A bison herd will be reintroduced and the MWF Steakhouse will be serving grass fed organic Bison steaks...Oh wait it's morning.
                              Last edited by Pumpkin QAAD; 01-05-2012, 12:03 PM.
                              A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

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                              • Here is a link to a website set up by the "Friends of Barrington." Barrington is a town in Yates County, on the shores of Keuka Lake. Barrington is mostly an agricultural area, with cows ,corn,cabbage, grapes(and wine) and Mennonites.
                                Along the shore of Keuka Lake are summer cottages and camps.

                                Some of the links are not operable, they explain that it is a site under construction.

                                It does shows some of the concerns that some people have, who actually live in area .

                                It is easy to dismiss those concerns if it is not happening in your backyard.

                                Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

                                When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
                                Henry David Thoreau

                                CL50-#23

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