Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > General Adirondack Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-02-2016, 07:40 AM   #41
Buckladd
Member
 
Buckladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hogtown
Posts: 1,057
DEC recently issued a statement asking the public to continue to look for this man: http://www.suncommunitynews.com/arti...issing-hunter/
Buckladd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 02:27 AM   #42
Blackhawk
Member
 
Blackhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 174
please excuse me if the following has already been discussed here or the deleted thread.

it concerns me greatly that mr. messick wasn't wearing any blaze orange clothing - even though I've crossed paths with many hunters over the years who won't use blaze orange.
he could've been accidently shot by another hunter who thought he shot at a deer. some hunters don't follow-up on the shot to look for blood - they assume they missed.
and remember that some hunters use their rifle scope instead of binoculars.
that means the cross hairs might've been on you at one point in time while you were hunting.
between maggots and decomposition a deer carcass will quickly disappear under the leaves even in subfreezing temperatures after sundown.
much more can be said.
__________________
Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

My photos cannot be used without my written permission.
Blackhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 02:28 AM   #43
Blackhawk
Member
 
Blackhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 174
http://kdvr.com/2015/10/29/colorado-...he-wilderness/
__________________
Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

My photos cannot be used without my written permission.
Blackhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 06:33 AM   #44
All Downhill From Here
Longstrider
 
All Downhill From Here's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 207
Video "articles" are terrible.
__________________
#9404
http://edthesmokebeard.com/
All Downhill From Here is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2016, 09:32 AM   #45
Tug Hill
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
please excuse me if the following has already been discussed here or the deleted thread.

it concerns me greatly that mr. messick wasn't wearing any blaze orange clothing - even though I've crossed paths with many hunters over the years who won't use blaze orange.
he could've been accidently shot by another hunter who thought he shot at a deer. some hunters don't follow-up on the shot to look for blood - they assume they missed.
and remember that some hunters use their rifle scope instead of binoculars.
that means the cross hairs might've been on you at one point in time while you were hunting.
between maggots and decomposition a deer carcass will quickly disappear under the leaves even in subfreezing temperatures after sundown.
much more can be said.
NY does not require hunters to wear blaze orange, and IMO rightly so, especially in the Northern Zone. Last hunting season in NY was the safest on record with NO fatalities. I've hunted many states where there are blaze orange requirements, and those states have much higher hunting accidents rates, with many less hunters a field. Plus most hunting accidents are self induced, or a member of the same party. Blaze orange or not, the best rule is to positively identify your target before pulling the trigger. You are correct, using your rifle scope as a monocular, is a careless practice.
Tug Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2016, 01:00 PM   #46
EagleCrag
Member
 
EagleCrag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gloversville, NY
Posts: 1,224
I agree with Tug on the blaze orange issue. I realize that by not wearing it I may be putting myself at more risk, but that is a choice that I get to make, not the government. Where I hunt in the northern zone I'm lucky if I see 5 other hunters in the woods during the season. The southern zone is another matter entirely and when I hunt there, which isn't often, I certainly do wear orange--a choice I make.
EagleCrag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 03:03 AM   #47
Schultzz
Low Impact Skidder
 
Schultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 845
He my have followed a sighted deer thinking he might get a shot and wandered off counting on his outdoor skills, and got lost and wandered some more, so his remains may still be out there, just not where others have looked. Camo makes it much more difficult to spot. If that is the case someone bushwhacking will eventually find his remains.
__________________
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.
Schultzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2016, 07:30 AM   #48
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzz View Post
He my have followed a sighted deer thinking he might get a shot and wandered off counting on his outdoor skills, and got lost and wandered some more, so his remains may still be out there, just not where others have looked. Camo makes it much more difficult to spot. If that is the case someone bushwhacking will eventually find his remains.
That's certainly a possibility. Mr. Messick was a former long-time gun safety instructor and knew the outdoors well, although this was his first time in this particular area where he disappeared. But (without passing any medical judgement) suspicions were that he was "getting forgetful" at his age. All too common in a high percentage of SAR incidents these days.

Other less likely and more distant areas, out to a 1.5 mile radius from place lasst seen, may only have had a single tightly spaced line crew pass through. Do the math on area coverage to see the manpower difficulty of full coverage in rough terrain with no directional guidance from any found clues. Trails leading out of the area and any structures were checked much farther away than that. Divers checked local ponds - all were quite shallow. Helicopters with IR cameras flew several days for hours.

I asked one of the volunteers on my crew who was wearing dark camo to lay down next to a log, to show the crew what we might expect to see. He all but disappeared from view. A quick glance from an inattentive or too widely spaced crew member could easily bypass him. That's why a large most probable area where SAR statistics showed he would likely be was criss-cross grid searched from multiple directions.

Years ago when I hunted a lot with my dad, wearing blaze orange clothing other than an orange cap was not very common, though we sure did wear heavy red plaid wool jackets. But we also hunted an area where we knew we were in there alone, or with people we knew.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:12 AM   #49
wiiawiwb
Member
 
wiiawiwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In the mountains
Posts: 604
From what I've read, Mr Messick had a two-way radio which would have enabled him to stay in contact with his party if he wandered off due to a sighted deer.

Has the family, or Encon, ever released a map of his last known location and direction of travel?
wiiawiwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 10:54 AM   #50
Blackhawk
Member
 
Blackhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 174
where's a Columbo type investigator when needed.

many things can be said about these types of missing person incidents where a body isn't found.
I remember one major incident where numerous law enforcement and public service types were used to search for a missing person (a possible murder victim) covering thousands of square miles - but they wouldn't allow private citizens to help in the search. after a certain point in time I say it's any port in a storm - use every tool and method available and then some.

were all of mr. Messick's hunting party members and others who were hunting in the region that day interviewed?

is there a website or facebook page/group or website out there that is gathering information, questions and answers from the date/time mr. Messick went missing and before?

i'm sure that when intelligent, open minded people put their heads together they can make a difference in solving anything.

could foul play be responsible for mr. Messick's disappearance?

did he did he develop amnesia, wander off and is living in another state?

was it an unreported/unknown hunting accident?

was mr. Messick shot by one of those hunters who use their rifle scope instead of binoculars?

please reply with your questions, comments or pm if you wish.

thanks,
__________________
Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

My photos cannot be used without my written permission.
Blackhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 03:54 PM   #51
Tug Hill
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 195
There are plenty of people who have gone missing in the ADK's and have never been found.
This may just be another unfortunate incident with no foul play involved ?
Or he could have surmised that Hillary or Donald would be our next president, and skipped to Canada. :>)
Tug Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:43 PM   #52
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiiawiwb View Post
From what I've read, Mr Messick had a two-way radio which would have enabled him to stay in contact with his party if he wandered off due to a sighted deer.

Has the family, or Encon, ever released a map of his last known location and direction of travel?
The FRS radio was one of the hot specific items searchers were looking for. Nothing ever came of it. Actually such a radio was found, obviously had been there quite a while and obviously not his.

I don't think it was ever a question or not of releasing the location of place last seen (PLS). He headed due east from a point on the road about a half km north of Lily Pond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
I remember one major incident where numerous law enforcement and public service types were used to search for a missing person (a possible murder victim) covering thousands of square miles - but they wouldn't allow private citizens to help in the search. after a certain point in time I say it's any port in a storm - use every tool and method available and then some.
Do you know how badly I wanted to assist on the search just a year ago for the escaped prisoners from Dannemora? Of course I would not be allowed to... all searchers had to be active law enforcement types with special training for that type of thing, and to be prepared and authorized to shoot if necessary (turns out it was). But since then I have had formal training on how the formalized analysis and planning for field operations is done, often burning hours of the midnight oil before sunrise, so maybe I could assist in the plans shop if not in the field during any future such incidents. Rangers I have known for a long time and LE are well aware of my training and ability.

However, the 2-day Land Navigation course I teach for the state has doubled enrollment by LE since their experience in the north woods near Dannemora. Most non-DEC LE types had no idea whatsoever how to navigate in the woods. We're trying to change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
were all of mr. Messick's hunting party members and others who were hunting in the region that day interviewed?
Of course, that is standard protocol for any search. Not just the hunting party, but other family and known associates who were not even on site. There was a high presence of highly trained senior law enforcement officials there every day, which I have seen is normal procedure in large campaign searches of this type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
wis there a website or facebook page/group or website out there that is gathering information, questions and answers from the date/time mr. Messick went missing and before?
The family had a facebook page up during and after the search activity. I have no idea how long they kept it up, maybe it still is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
i'm sure that when intelligent, open minded people put their heads together they can make a difference in solving anything.
There is a large body of study on missing persons, with detailed formal and standardized procedures for analyzing and processes for carrying out such an incident. There is much experienced input from Rangers and LE on past incidents, both nationally and local, and a good deal of high level statistical math that goes into every planning function. After each day's search, new data is put into the models and hours of planning and analysis goes into modifying and improving the next day's operational activities. It is far far more just gathering a bunch of rangers and volunteers to head off into the woods. The process has been developed over decades of research and analysis of thousands of previous incidents. There is an excellent track record of success, but like anything else you usually only hear about the difficult ones. Most cases are resolved one way or the other fairly quickly, some take a bit more time, a small percentage are never brought to conclusion. That's just the way it goes.

QUOTE=Blackhawk;246411]could foul play be responsible for mr. Messick's disappearance? [/QUOTE]That is always an open question on any search incident. Detailed investigations by professional law enforcement begin on day 1 of any search incident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
did he did he develop amnesia, wander off and is living in another state?
SAR incidents that involve the elderly and alzheimers are becoming increasingly common. We don't think Mr. Messick had a serious case of any such ailment, but it wouldn't take much to get into real trouble out there. One never really knows what is in someone else's mind. We sometimes badly joke about a long term missing guy being with his girlfriend in Florida. A very bad joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
was it an unreported/unknown hunting accident?
Not sure what you mean by this. Investigation by LE would have turned up evidence and not gone in the direction it did for 2 full weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
was mr. Messick shot by one of those hunters who use their rifle scope instead of binoculars?
He was hunting with family, who by all appearances were concerned and loving (and were interviewed in detail). There was no report of any other hunters in the area, and no reports of gunshots.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

Last edited by Wldrns; 06-09-2016 at 12:06 AM..
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 10:25 PM   #53
Blackhawk
Member
 
Blackhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 174
thank you very much wldrns for informing, educating and communicating with the masses on these types of searches for lost or missing individuals.
and thanks also for your patience in writing detailed responses to member questions or comments. education, training and technical information saves lives and brings closure to loved ones and peace to all involved.
__________________
Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

My photos cannot be used without my written permission.
Blackhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 08:57 AM   #54
peskypup
Member
 
peskypup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ / Brant Lake
Posts: 220
Rensselaer County Search and Rescue was in the area yesterday, I assume looking for Mr. Messick. Their mobile unit and maybe 8-10 cars were parked in the field near the access road for Lilly Pond.
peskypup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 04:42 PM   #55
Wldrns
Member
 
Wldrns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Western Adirondacks
Posts: 4,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by peskypup View Post
Rensselaer County Search and Rescue was in the area yesterday, I assume looking for Mr. Messick. Their mobile unit and maybe 8-10 cars were parked in the field near the access road for Lilly Pond.
The SAR teams of NY (26 of them as part of the NYS Federation of SAR teams) regularly train several times a year by organizing "mock searches". The DEC, working with the teams, encourages such activity in areas that still have unresolved missing person cases. You never know what might turn up during a realistic training event.
__________________
"Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
Wldrns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 10:36 PM   #56
peskypup
Member
 
peskypup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ / Brant Lake
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wldrns View Post
The SAR teams of NY (26 of them as part of the NYS Federation of SAR teams) regularly train several times a year by organizing "mock searches". The DEC, working with the teams, encourages such activity in areas that still have unresolved missing person cases. You never know what might turn up during a realistic training event.
Thanks Wldrns. I figured it was probably part of some periodic training exercise. It's good to know there are people out there still looking for the missing even after the case goes "cold". No matter how much time passes, I'm sure it would bring some comfort to their families to finally have some some form of resolution.
peskypup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 10:49 PM   #57
Schultzz
Low Impact Skidder
 
Schultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 845
"thank you very much wldrns for informing, educating and communicating with the masses on these types of searches for lost or missing individuals.
and thanks also for your patience in writing detailed responses to member questions or comments. education, training and technical information saves lives and brings closure to loved ones and peace to all involved." Blackhawk

DITTO
__________________
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.
Schultzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 11:38 PM   #58
Blackhawk
Member
 
Blackhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 174
'Not sure what you mean by this. Investigation by LE would have turned up evidence and not gone in the direction it did for 2 full weeks.

He was hunting with family, who by all appearances were concerned and loving (and were interviewed in detail). There was no report of any other hunters in the area, and no reports of gunshots.'[/QUOTE]

'He was hunting with family, who by all appearances were concerned and loving (and were interviewed in detail). There was no report of any other hunters in the area, and no reports of gunshots.'[/QUOTE]

while there was 'no report of any other hunters in the area' there still could've been others hunting there.
and while i'm not familiar with the area in question gunshots may not be heard depending upon terrain and other variable conditions.

I've spent many years hunting with family and friends in wilderness areas of the 'dacks. on one occasion while sitting around the campfire with my hunting party another group of hunters joined us. the one brother sitting next to me said his brother was shot and killed by another brother while deer hunting. I can't verify this incident at this point but it happens.
it happened several years ago about 5 miles from my home. two buddies deer hunting after well sundown and one buddy shot the other who died instantly.
another incident where family was bowhunting together well after sundown and the brother-in-law shot one of the brothers - he died instantly.

in another incident I heard the shot that took the life of a hunter approx. 1/4 mile away - that incident was determined to be a suicide within a short period of time - [too short imho] - without a thorough investigation.

there are good investigators but there are also investigators who lack common sense and experience.
there are ethical hunters but there are also unethical hunters.
there are searchers who know the woods and signs and there are also those who don't.

i'm hoping someone has made the decision to go back and doing the search operations over again - perhaps using different techniques and methods the missing hunter will be found.
__________________
Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

My photos cannot be used without my written permission.
Blackhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 04:59 AM   #59
cityboy
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 575
This tragedy is eerily similar to what happened to a friend of the family a few years ago. His father was out hunting at night and separated from the group. Police were unable to find a trace. After about a week the two sons searched and found him at the bottom of a watery brush pile. He apparently had a heart attack and fell into the stream and was swept under. I suspect something similar here.
cityboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 08:12 AM   #60
wiiawiwb
Member
 
wiiawiwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In the mountains
Posts: 604
People hike, bushwhack, hunt, and camp in the Lily Pond and neighboring area. I think it would be enormously helpful that those in charge of the search (NYS Police?) release a map showing the areas considered thoroughly searched with a high degree of confidence.

In the future, those who go into the region would be able to focus their attention on the areas neighboring it. Essentially, it would be mobilizing a civilian search squad. I can't see any downside to doing so and, were he my family, I would have strongly urged the NYSP do so so a long time ago.
wiiawiwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.