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Old 07-14-2016, 08:24 PM   #21
jmg343
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I dont think that he mean the moose is an endangered species. I think that he meant NY's moose population is endangered, while not on any official lists, just because he is under the impression that there are less than 1000 moose in NYS. I dont know one way or the other, just explaining how I think he intended the statement to be read. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by St.Regis View Post
Your claim that the moose is an endangered species is completely false.
Clearly pointing specifically to this region, and the lack of the population expansion to the numbers hoped for. That's according to this DECs most recent Ariel survey of region 5 and only finding 7 animals. Google search for confirmation if you like. The term "endangered" could be replaced with "At risk or sensitive" or even "small" or any other non legal descriptive term if you need more clarity. Worrying about the grammatical use of an adjective as opposed to the "point" of the discussion is typical of why we have a problem. Too many miss the "point". We have a multi-billion dollar industry pulling strings of politicians who in turn ensure the business wheels keep turning. Shooting something and claiming its saves the fledgling population, is no different then what's happening when scientists warn us that climate change threatens our future (literally btw) yet oil company "bought and sold" policy makers deny actual science; how can they possibly risk us all based on a non scientific opinion, how is money of greater importance to them? That's the point, we all have become a form of a puppet on a string. I miss the days when people had backbone and courage and would stand for what was right. Allowing hunting of a tiny Moose population in the same region where they were wiped out for approx 150 years buy the same foolishness - $$ before sense. It's a disgrace...
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:27 PM   #23
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Clearly pointing specifically to this region, and the lack of the population expansion to the numbers hoped for. That's according to this DECs most recent Ariel survey of region 5 and only finding 7 animals. Google search for confirmation if you like. The term "endangered" could be replaced with "At risk or sensitive" or even "small" or any other non legal descriptive term if you need more clarity. Worrying about the grammatical use of an adjective as opposed to the "point" of the discussion is typical of why we have a problem. Too many miss the "point". We have a multi-billion dollar industry pulling strings of politicians who in turn ensure the business wheels keep turning. Shooting something and claiming its saves the fledgling population, is no different then what's happening when scientists warn us that climate change threatens our future (literally btw) yet oil company "bought and sold" policy makers deny actual science; how can they possibly risk us all based on a non scientific opinion, how is money of greater importance to them? That's the point, we all have become a form of a puppet on a string. I miss the days when people had backbone and courage and would stand for what was right. Allowing hunting of a tiny Moose population in the same region where they were wiped out for approx 150 years buy the same foolishness - $$ before sense. It's a disgrace...
I respectfully disagree,it is irrefutable in Africa, local tribal people have seen and realized that many big game species are worth protecting from poaching because they are more valuable to the local economy, by allowing regulated sport hunting.
If not for that, illegal poaching for ivory, rhino horn etc., will run rampant with no regulation on the taking of these species.

Also, with the ADK's being so densely forested, DEC aerial survey has little credability .

The moose in NY were extirpated by illegal hunting, not sport hunting. No one here is advocating illegal sport hunting.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:42 PM   #24
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I respectfully disagree,it is irrefutable in Africa, local tribal people have seen and realized that many big game species are worth protecting from poaching because they are more valuable to the local economy, by allowing regulated sport hunting.
If not for that, illegal poaching for ivory, rhino horn etc., will run rampant with no regulation on the taking of these species.

Also, with the ADK's being so densely forested, DEC aerial survey has little credability .

The moose in NY were extirpated by illegal hunting, not sport hunting. No one here is advocating illegal sport hunting.
On this we can ; and should, agree to disagree because I unequivocally disagree. The Ariel surveys are done in winter when the leaf cover in deciduous areas is not an issue. I do agree that there is no perfect way to measure population but I would be shocked if any reasonably sane person thinks that we have a Moose population at such huge population size that they need to be regulated with hunting. It's a foolish stance from stem to stern. You mentioned Africa as if to hold up hunting by rich white people insinuating it has something to do with conservation? (i.e bribing locals to shoot the big 5) reality is that they are rich brats who deserve far worse than the silver spoon they were born with. Africa's wildlife is depleting at an alarming rate as is the rest of the world. In fact, 50% of the planets bio diversity has disappeared I the past fourth(40) years according to published scientific studies about the planets bio index. You might think Donald Trumps idiot son holding a dead leopard in Africa has something to do with conservation and you might believe elephants can fly, but sadly belief doesn't change facts, just your "perception" of them. A hunter feeding his or her family in the far north is not the same as people who trash our wild places with their moronic lifestyles choices. Anyone who takes a Moose in NY state belongs in prison, they are a disgrace to our region and species. What we do need - is real "education" for the future generations (assuming there are some) because the current generation is lacking, misguided & confused.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:07 PM   #25
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As a 40 year professional forester in the ADK's and on Tug Hill, I can tell you unequivocally that all but one species of conifers in these regions retain there leaves/needles in winter.
And since most NY ungulates winter in coniferous forests for thermal cover, I still challenge the DEC's survey

maybe the DEC should do a Ariel survey in winter to quell the rumors of mountain lions and wolves in NY, since you have so much faith in their surveys ?

Reguardless of your or my opinions, I never thought there would be a huntable population of wild turkeys in NY or a huntable population of Black Bears on Tug Hill in my lifetime. But it has become fact. The same goes for moose in VT, NH, and ME, or elk in KYand PA.
I'd put my money on someday there will be a moose lottery in NY, and when that happens, no one shooting a moose in NY legally will be encarcirated.

Have a nice life, if possible.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Tug Hill View Post
As a 40 year professional forester in the ADK's and on Tug Hill, I can tell you unequivocally that all but one species of conifers in these regions retain there leaves/needles in winter.
And since most NY ungulates winter in coniferous forests for thermal cover, I still challenge the DEC's survey

maybe the DEC should do a Ariel survey in winter to quell the rumors of mountain lions and wolves in NY, since you have so much faith in their surveys ?

Reguardless of your or my opinions, I never thought there would be a huntable population of wild turkeys in NY or a huntable population of Black Bears on Tug Hill in my lifetime. But it has become fact. The same goes for moose in VT, NH, and ME, or elk in KYand PA.
I'd put my money on someday there will be a moose lottery in NY, and when that happens, no one shooting a moose in NY legally will be encarcirated.

Have a nice life, if possible.

Thanks for the interesting insight although the region where they did the survey is nearly all deciduous so it's not really applicable, also worth noting I am under the impression that no one reading this post thinks conifers won't have needles in winter. When you say "forester" are you saying "logger" with better street creds? The wolves and lions you joke about would all be here if they all weren't shot by the way. Instead of making fun of those whom have seen them or think they have here is a novel thought how about helping protect the wilderness instead of protecting your rights to exploit it for $$? It's worth asking and speaks to the core of why many of those people did not actually see what they hoped or thought they did, just my opinion since you raised the subject...
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:22 AM   #27
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And the beat goes on. This is a great venue for differing opinions (that's what makes for interesting reading) but one of you needs to invest in Spellcheck. Correct spelling always lends itself to better credibility. JMHO
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:12 AM   #28
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Very basic remedial question - are moose native to the area and at what populations levels? I think it's early to consider hunting them - I've seen tracks only one time, and did see one that DEC ended up shooting because it was in some kind of peril, or sick, after it hung out on the Ausable River for a few days. Other than that, wouldn't it be a bit difficult to find one? During rutting in Vermont, I've seen them walking up city streets in Burlington in the middle of the night. I thought I was seeing things. I also saw one at McDonald's in colchester VT during rutting.
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:55 AM   #29
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I believe that you referring to the moose population in NY as "endangered, tiny, struggling" is meant to incite or at least pull on emotional heart strings of people that may not know anything or very little about the subject. IMO, you're just another misguided anti using the same old lame tactics to try and lure people off the fence.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:29 AM   #30
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ADK- Your agenda driven posts and twisted logic are getting tiresome. Please take it somewhere else...
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:59 PM   #31
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ADK- Your agenda driven posts and twisted logic are getting tiresome. Please take it somewhere else...
i'm open to everyone's comments, experiences, opinions etc. as long as the comments are professional and kind but not ad hominem in nature - after all that's the purpose of a well managed public forum.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:23 PM   #32
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i'm open to everyone's comments, experiences, opinions etc. as long as the comments are professional and kind but not ad hominem in nature - after all that's the purpose of a well managed public forum.
Thumbs up for this. Thanks for saying it, Blackhawk.

I appreciate all experiences and opinions. Including adk's, I find them thoughtful and tempered. Please keep contributing.
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Old 07-29-2016, 09:56 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by dmartenvt View Post
Very basic remedial question - are moose native to the area and at what populations levels? I think it's early to consider hunting them - I've seen tracks only one time, and did see one that DEC ended up shooting because it was in some kind of peril, or sick, after it hung out on the Ausable River for a few days. Other than that, wouldn't it be a bit difficult to find one? During rutting in Vermont, I've seen them walking up city streets in Burlington in the middle of the night. I thought I was seeing things. I also saw one at McDonald's in colchester VT during rutting.
Great question about Moose "yes" they are 100% native to the Adirondacks as are wolves (likely Ref Wolf) and Cougar and even a subspecies of eastern Elk (now argued to be extinct). All were hunted until they were wiped out. The Moose was considered incredibly plentiful back in the days before logging raked the forest. (Loggers love to argue they help Moose by the way) This region is/was fantastic Moose habitat. In fact the logging camps continually fed the workers Moose meat which they hunted tirelessly and that is what happened to the population in the first place (and is well documented.) Wolves and Cougars, bears etc were slaughtered by a misguided belief they competed with human hunters and bounties were paid by the government to erratic them (insanity). Thankfully many people have a better understanding of ecology today and work to help sustain wildlife populations (not nearly enough, but some). Sadly for pure wolves and cougars that was too late in this area and without help would be very tough to return. (Coywolf hybrids and Bears are doing very well). Moose in the Adirondacks are a sign of hope, that despite our species many short comings maybe just maybe we can do something right or atleast prevent most people from doing something wrong (like shooting an animal in a tiny local population just "because" for example.)
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:44 PM   #34
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People should learn what this bill is and isn't doing before crying "wolf."

This bill is proposing to open up Moose to being managed by the state in the same way that other game species are (like Deer and Bear). This doesn't mean that should the bill pass, everyone can go grab a rifle and start blasting away when fall seasons starts up.

It does mean that the DEC will be allowed to develop a management plan; and given the limited #'s estimated for NY (~800) that plan would likely entail a lottery system of some sort where only a limited number of tags were issued every year.

From the NY Senate website (https://www.nysenate.gov/newsroom/pr...nting-new-york):

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The legislation authorizes the DEC to establish a licensing process and determine an appropriate hunting season. The department would also set limits and licensing fees.
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