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Old 05-23-2016, 08:32 AM   #1
ab62089
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wolves near tupper lake?

So we just acquired a land lease in piercefield right on dead creek and we swore we heard wolves saturday night around 10 pm when there was a full moon. We have both heard coyotes many times but this was low pitch howling. Any insight on this would be great as I was terrified.
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:28 AM   #2
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Welcome to the forum. This topic has been discussed before. It is possible that wolves exist but more likely it may be a cross between a wolf and a coyote known as a coywolf. No I am not kidding. Also sometimes a great horned owl fairly close by can sound like cries of other creatures further away. Also, sometimes hounds will howl at the moon. At any rate there is no reason to be terrified but keep an eye on your pets as even coyotes will pursue them.
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Old 05-23-2016, 12:00 PM   #3
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Ditto. No need to worry about your own safety, but small pets may disappear. Lots of animals makes noises, especially at sun up/down. I often hear a scream when I'm camping in the backcountry near a pond, but can't pin it down. It could be something as harmless as an owl or marsh bird.
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Old 05-23-2016, 12:19 PM   #4
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Ditto. No need to worry about your own safety, but small pets may disappear. Lots of animals makes noises, especially at sun up/down. I often hear a scream when I'm camping in the backcountry near a pond, but can't pin it down. It could be something as harmless as an owl or marsh bird.
That was probably just Glen after learning how much income tax he had to pay.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:51 AM   #5
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I'm pretty sure I heard wolves one night, I'm used to hearing the coyotes and it was quite different, the tracks were also much larger than the usual coyote/wolf hybrid tracks. I can't honestly say, but I remember a corrections officers from one of the prisons around told me for certain there was a wolf pack living near one of the prisons. I'll never know, except what I heard was distinct from the coyote howls I usually hear.

The coyotes in the ADKs tend to be larger than those in southern regions of NY and New England, and I believe one of the differences is that they came in from the north through the Algonquin and interbred with those wolves rather than directly westward. I'm interested in the sense i believe their hunting/pack dynamics may be different than traditional coyotes, who generally hunt in pairs, and I think the hybrids may have hybrid behavioral differences as well.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:19 AM   #6
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PBS did a documentary on the coywolf a few years ago that can be found on you tube. Very very good and enlightening. Here's the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=andMu4oVgyw
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Old 07-13-2016, 04:49 PM   #7
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I suppose it's possible for a wolf/coyote hybrid, but I think it is highly unlikely.
Other PBS wildlife documentaries like the one about the wolves in Yellowstone, shows that wolves when confronted by a coyote ,usually kill it.
Just like a coyote will kill every red fox they can catch.
I've hunted several years in Northwest Ontario where they have a healthy thriving population of grey wolves, to the point that it is impacting moose an deer herds there. I always saw wolves while hunting there, but never saw a coyote or any sign of them.
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Old 07-17-2016, 02:07 PM   #8
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That was probably just Glen after learning how much income tax he had to pay.
Well done, Schultzz!!!
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Old 07-17-2016, 02:12 PM   #9
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I suppose it's possible for a wolf/coyote hybrid, but I think it is highly unlikely.
Other PBS wildlife documentaries like the one about the wolves in Yellowstone, shows that wolves when confronted by a coyote ,usually kill it.
Just like a coyote will kill every red fox they can catch.
I've hunted several years in Northwest Ontario where they have a healthy thriving population of grey wolves, to the point that it is impacting moose an deer herds there. I always saw wolves while hunting there, but never saw a coyote or any sign of them.
The wolves in the Algonquin area are not the same wolves as the ones out west and further north. They are thought to be the last of the original Eastern Wolf, whether they are Red Wolves is debatable. The Eastern Wolf will breed with Greys and Coyotes which makes a future as a distinct species at risk.
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Old 07-17-2016, 06:26 PM   #10
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The wolves in the Algonquin area are not the same wolves as the ones out west and further north. They are thought to be the last of the original Eastern Wolf, whether they are Red Wolves is debatable. The Eastern Wolf will breed with Greys and Coyotes which makes a future as a distinct species at risk.
That may be, but the wolves in Northwest Ontario,( Kenora District)are grey or timber wolves that are well over 100 lbs when they are an adult. And I seriously doubt they would peaceably interact with a 35lb - 40lb coyote.

Don't know about the indigenous wolf of the Algonquin area.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:40 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tug Hill View Post
I suppose it's possible for a wolf/coyote hybrid, but I think it is highly unlikely.
Other PBS wildlife documentaries like the one about the wolves in Yellowstone, shows that wolves when confronted by a coyote ,usually kill it.
Just like a coyote will kill every red fox they can catch.
I've hunted several years in Northwest Ontario where they have a healthy thriving population of grey wolves, to the point that it is impacting moose an deer herds there. I always saw wolves while hunting there, but never saw a coyote or any sign of them.
It is not only possible it is a fact they have been breeding with them for decades. In eastern Ontario just about all coyotes have wolf DNA hence the more accurate name of Coywolf. Could be an Eastern Wolf/Coyote cross or Eastern/Grey with Coyote cross. You have the evolution of a new species that is more adaptable to the current landscape than either parent. The downside will be the loss of pure bred Eastern Wolves.

BTW there are Coyotes in the Kenora district and it is possible those wolves contain some Eastern Wolf DNA. Michigan and Minnesota wolves contained some Eastern Wolf DNA.
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Old 07-18-2016, 03:15 PM   #12
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I have heard coywolves a number of times (just last night) on my property north of Stratford, bordering Ferris Lake Wild Forest and in the Moose River Plains. Much more in the way of long howls than yips.
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:28 PM   #13
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A romantic dream, there has not been a wolf population in the ADK's since the early 1900's.
Jim
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Old 07-18-2016, 05:29 PM   #14
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According to the "State of NY Forest Fish and Game Commission, eighth and ninth report, 1902 - 1903," ADK Wolves were abundant up to 1871, that year a bounty was placed on their scalps.

Excerpts from the report.

"The disappearance of Wolves at that time has never been satisfactorily explained, as from that date to 1897 only ninety-five bounties were paid."

That's only 3.7 wolves per year, you'd think the recruitment rate would have exceede that harvest rate ?

"That the wolf in the ADK's is not altogether extinct is evidence by the bounty records, which show that six wolves were killed in each of the years 1895, 1896, and 1897, although in the six years preceding no bounties were paid."

" It is interesting to note the persistence of wolves in Europe, where a considerable number are still killed in Germany and France, as contrasted with their rapid decline everywhere in America."

Last edited by Tug Hill; 07-18-2016 at 05:43 PM..
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Old 07-18-2016, 07:29 PM   #15
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A romantic dream, there has not been a wolf population in the ADK's since the early 1900's.
Jim
In the 1960's we often heard howling. What it was was not loons. At that time we thought coydog.
PS Algonquin is far from NW Ontario. Its southeastern Ontario.
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Old 07-18-2016, 09:14 PM   #16
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In the 1960's we often heard howling. What it was was not loons. At that time we thought coydog.
PS Algonquin is far from NW Ontario. Its southeastern Ontario.
I know where Algonquin is, but what diference does that make if the theory is that coyotes migrated to the east, from the west through Canada ?


Coy dog, another unproven theory .
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Old 07-18-2016, 09:20 PM   #17
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I know where Algonquin is, but what diference does that make if the theory is that coyotes migrated to the east, from the west through Canada ?


Coy dog, another unproven theory .
What I said was "at that time". 1963. You might have not been born.

There are subspecies of coyote and wolf. Local migrations happened ie from NW Ontario to Isle Royale but nothing widespread.
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Old 07-18-2016, 10:46 PM   #18
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USFWS Eastern Wolf Assessment Report

Vermont 2015 Wolf State Wildlife Action Plan (p. 99)

NYS DEC 2015 Wolf Assessment:

Species Status Assessment

Class: Mammalia
Family: Canidae
Scientific Name: Canis lupus
Common Name: Wolf

Species synopsis (a short paragraph which describes species taxonomy, habitat in New York, distribution and recent trends):

The common name of Canis lupus was recently changed from gray wolf to wolf (Wilson and Reeder 2005). A century ago, the range of the wolf stretched throughout the forested East, southward through Illinois, Tennessee, and northern Virginia. To the south, the species was replaced by the red wolf (Canis lupus rufus, formerly Canis rufus). Following a steep decline, the wolf is now established or recolonizing in 11 states in the United States including Michigan, Wisconsin, and North Carolina in the east. Wolves are still found throughout much of Canada and Alaska and parts of Montana, and in Wyoming in Yellowstone National Park (Whitaker and Hamilton 1998).

The eastern timber wolf (Canis lupus lycaon), which occurred in all of New England and in New York (Paradiso and Nowak 1982) was extirpated from the Northeast by 1900. There is uncertainty regarding the genetic ancestry of the wolves that inhabited the northeastern United States historically, including New York. DNA analysis of historic wolf samples from the northeastern United States has been limited (n= 3, Wilson et al. 2003, Koblmuller et al. 2009). Evidence from mitochondrial DNA suggests eastern wolves were present in Maine and New York historically (~1890, Wilson et al. 2003, Koblmuller et al. 2009). Gray wolves (Canis lupus) or hybrids between gray wolves and eastern wolves may also have been present but DNA analysis of historic samples from the Northeast, has been too limited to rigorously evaluate the genetic ancestry of wolves that historically inhabited the northeastern United States. Rigorous DNA analysis of additional historic samples from New York and the northeastern United States may help clarify the issue.

Five main factors are critical to the long-term survival of the wolf: (1) large tracts of wild land with low human densities and minimal accessibility by humans, (2) ecologically sound management, (3) availability of adequate wild prey, (4), adequate understanding of wolf ecology and management, and (5) maintenance of populations that are either free of, or resistant to, parasites and diseases new to wolves or are large enough to successfully contend with their adverse effects (Eastern Timber Wolf Recovery Team 1992).
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:02 PM   #19
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What I said was "at that time". 1963. You might have not been born.

There are subspecies of coyote and wolf. Local migrations happened ie from NW Ontario to Isle Royale but nothing widespread.
Yes, I was born well before 1963, but I don't know what that has to do with someone having an opinion on wolf/coyote hybrids, or the mythical coy dog ?
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:18 PM   #20
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Eastern coyote genetics
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