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Old 07-20-2016, 02:29 AM   #21
dmartenvt
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I cannot currently find the study, but I believe there was a DNA study specific to ADK coyotes that showed they were distinct from most coyotes south of here as they migrated through a northerly route, coming down through the Algonquin, and they interbred with those wolves, which were a distinct species from the gray wolf as noted by Walker. I do know that while wolves will often kill coyotes, it's pretty common knowledge that are eastern coyotes have wolf DNA, so they must mingle. I cannot currently find the study results, I did see at least some of it presented at a symposium in Albany. In short, what I remember is that the ADK hybrid is significantly larger than its southern and eastern New England counterparts and distinct genetically based on its northerly migration route.

I Have wondered if it may have some different behavioral characteristics than the coyote in how it behaves in the pack.
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Old 07-20-2016, 09:42 AM   #22
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You mean this? Coyote hybridization line

At the '07 Albany coyote conference, Kays showed a slide demarcating the line of hybridization roughly splitting the state in half. Coyotes in western NY arrived later via the southern route and did not hybridize with eastern wolves.

I have never seen anything suggesting ADK coyotes are bigger than any other eastern coyotes. Packs are simply family units staying together longer. Perhaps ADK coyotes might do so because they may be getting hammered a little less hard from hunting/trapping pressure. I've heard Kays say that 8 out of 10 NY coyotes don't make it past their first year.
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:24 AM   #23
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To me, they're either a wolf or a coyote and I've only seen the latter, including some big ones!
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:47 AM   #24
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You mean this? Coyote hybridization line

At the '07 Albany coyote conference, Kays showed a slide demarcating the line of hybridization roughly splitting the state in half. Coyotes in western NY arrived later via the southern route and did not hybridize with eastern wolves.

I have never seen anything suggesting ADK coyotes are bigger than any other eastern coyotes. Packs are simply family units staying together longer. Perhaps ADK coyotes might do so because they may be getting hammered a little less hard from hunting/trapping pressure. I've heard Kays say that 8 out of 10 NY coyotes don't make it past their first year.
Yes thank you, that is what I was looking for, and it is the talk I remember going to awhile back. I haven't seen tracks for anything larger than a single family pack; but when I hear them celebrating a kill, it does sound larger! i may have seen the study about size somewhere else, or maybe I'm mistaken on that one. I backtrack them sometimes and listen for them when I have a pack around - right now I haven't heard them routinely for a couple of years but did get one on a game camera. I can tell when a pack has claimed our area. I have fox kits living in an extensive den next door so I'm assuming the isn't an active coyote pack around.
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:29 PM   #25
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You mean this? Coyote hybridization line

At the '07 Albany coyote conference, Kays showed a slide demarcating the line of hybridization roughly splitting the state in half. Coyotes in western NY arrived later via the southern route and did not hybridize with eastern wolves.

I have never seen anything suggesting ADK coyotes are bigger than any other eastern coyotes. Packs are simply family units staying together longer. Perhaps ADK coyotes might do so because they may be getting hammered a little less hard from hunting/trapping pressure. I've heard Kays say that 8 out of 10 NY coyotes don't make it past their first year.
Generally the colder the weather, the bigger the animal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann%27s_rule
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Old 07-20-2016, 03:58 PM   #26
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We just love to be frightened.
Sounds in the night.
What's that????
A raccoon or a wolf??
A panther??
Or a mouse??
It all adds up to the fun of camping.
Jim
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:51 PM   #27
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X 2 Buck Ladd.

I have trapped ,shot, skinned and weighed many NY coyotes, and most people over estimate the average weight of a coyote. NYS coyotes average about 35-45 lbs., do they get heavier, yes.

As far as hunting in packs, that is usually a female with her yearling pups. Other than that and mating season, most are solatary animals.

I shot a dozen coyotes over bait this past winter and all came in alone.

I know many here that don't hunt or trap coyotes will know better, but this is what I have observed over the years.
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Old 07-20-2016, 05:09 PM   #28
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I don't mind coyotes or wolves, it's the alligators that make me nervous.
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:22 AM   #29
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I have trapped ,shot, skinned and weighed many NY coyotes, and most people over estimate the average weight of a coyote. NYS coyotes average about 35-45 lbs., do they get heavier, yes.
Overestimate, indeed. Kays said the state record coyote is 59 lbs.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:21 PM   #30
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The further south from the Algonquin area the less wolf like they are. That line extends farther south in the east and in winter. Wolves also cross the Ottawa River from Quebec.

There was a wolf that crossed from Quebec. He was a year old when they put a transmitting collar on him and he survived for ten years before being hit by a car hundreds of miles from where he was originally collared. At his death he was a healthy 130 lbs.. He is stuffed now and looks huge. He was pure black. Every so often I see a black coywolf/wolf and think theres one of his progeny.
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Old 07-22-2016, 11:05 AM   #31
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X 2 Buck Ladd.

I have trapped ,shot, skinned and weighed many NY coyotes, and most people over estimate the average weight of a coyote. NYS coyotes average about 35-45 lbs., do they get heavier, yes.

As far as hunting in packs, that is usually a female with her yearling pups. Other than that and mating season, most are solatary animals.

I shot a dozen coyotes over bait this past winter and all came in alone.

I know many here that don't hunt or trap coyotes will know better, but this is what I have observed over the years.
Algonquin adult male wolves are 60-80 lbs. and females 45-65 lbs. they are lighter built than Greys. Pack size is smaller as well.
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Old 07-23-2016, 02:45 PM   #32
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I have never know Eastern coyotes to pack up except for the mother with her yearlings as mentioned above. Two at the most. Is this proof that the pack you experienced might be coywolves as evidenced by their grouping?
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Old 07-25-2016, 04:10 PM   #33
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I can only relate this one experience with a known pack of coyotes.
Starting in the mid 80's for 12 straight years, me and a friend would float a canoe for 3 days down the East Stoney Creek starting near Baldwin Springs and finishing near the Moosewood Club. First year, first night in we make camp on the bank. Cooked up a pan full of brookies with garlic and butter on top of the flipped over canoe and went to bed. 3 AM we are both violently woken up by the sound like a female voice of a person being stabbed to death; like a stuck, squealing pig but more human sounding. As I unzipped the tent and grabbed my machete and flashed my headlamp at the offending party, 15' away at my eye level were a multitude of sets of glowing eyes staring back at me. I stopped counting after 10 sets of eyes and can only assume there were at least a dozen shoulder to shoulder. I have also been followed by groups of 3 or 4 on early mornings walks placing clients in treestands during deer season on occasion.
Perhaps it was a fluke but I'll never forget that night with local coyotes of East Stoney Creek on Mothers Day 1986.
Nonsense!
Coyotes are one of the most furtive animals in the ADK's.
To say that they surrounded your tent, waiting to attack you is ludicrous.
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Old 07-25-2016, 04:21 PM   #34
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In westchester county, while bowhunting, I have sat in my stand until well after dark on several occasions. On at least two occasions I have had a pack of coyotes, or coywolves, I dont know which one, under my stand for as long as 10 minutes or so. I dont think they were too interested in me. They were just milling around, maybe lured by the fox urine cover scent on my boots, or curious about some other foreign (to them) scent. But I can assure you there were no less than 7 or 8 dogs.
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Old 07-26-2016, 03:46 PM   #35
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In westchester county, while bowhunting, I have sat in my stand until well after dark on several occasions. On at least two occasions I have had a pack of coyotes, or coywolves, I dont know which one, under my stand for as long as 10 minutes or so. I dont think they were too interested in me. They were just milling around, maybe lured by the fox urine cover scent on my boots, or curious about some other foreign (to them) scent. But I can assure you there were no less than 7 or 8 dogs.
Think what you want, but coyotes are the most furtive of animals.
I sincerely doubt that those were coyotes circling your stand.
Respectfully,
Jim
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:57 PM   #36
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I can only relate this one experience with a known pack of coyotes.
Starting in the mid 80's for 12 straight years, me and a friend would float a canoe for 3 days down the East Stoney Creek starting near Baldwin Springs and finishing near the Moosewood Club. First year, first night in we make camp on the bank. Cooked up a pan full of brookies with garlic and butter on top of the flipped over canoe and went to bed. 3 AM we are both violently woken up by the sound like a female voice of a person being stabbed to death; like a stuck, squealing pig but more human sounding. As I unzipped the tent and grabbed my machete and flashed my headlamp at the offending party, 15' away at my eye level were a multitude of sets of glowing eyes staring back at me. I stopped counting after 10 sets of eyes and can only assume there were at least a dozen shoulder to shoulder. I have also been followed by groups of 3 or 4 on early mornings walks placing clients in treestands during deer season on occasion.
Perhaps it was a fluke but I'll never forget that night with local coyotes of East Stoney Creek on Mothers Day 1986.
samsbud,
i'm trying to understand the '10 sets of eyes' that were '15' away' at eye level that you saw with your headlamp and not being able to determine what the creatures were in the beam of your headlamp. at 15' even my old mini-mag light would've illuminated the creatures behind the eyes. i've got many moons of first hand experience, observations, hundreds of thousands of wildlife photos, countless hours hunting catskills and 'dacks and have read numerous accounts of eastern coyotes/coywolves and have never heard nor witnessed an experience like you've had with 10 sets of eyes. please explain further.
thanks,
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:07 PM   #37
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In westchester county, while bowhunting, I have sat in my stand until well after dark on several occasions. On at least two occasions I have had a pack of coyotes, or coywolves, I dont know which one, under my stand for as long as 10 minutes or so. I dont think they were too interested in me. They were just milling around, maybe lured by the fox urine cover scent on my boots, or curious about some other foreign (to them) scent. But I can assure you there were no less than 7 or 8 dogs.
jmg,
if you were bowhunting for deer why would you still be in a tree stand well after dark?
I listened to a hunter (who was thought to be lost or hurt by his partner) explain how he hunts deer and stays in the woods until he no longer can see the whites of their eyes. he told us this after coming out of the woods almost an hour after sundown.
I personally know of someone who was shot through the liver by a family member because they were still in the woods hunting an hour after sundown and the shooter thought he was a deer.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:40 PM   #38
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There seems to be a hysteria amongst greenhorns and old soldiers alike in regards to the animals that make our great forest, wild. IMO the fear is irrational. I could be wrong and next week you could read about a coyote pack dying from obesity after eating a fat ass like me.
Even my closest companions who have extensive time in the woods are intimidated by the coyote, not to mention the bear.
All I can say is I would have no problem camping under the stars, without tent, without fire, and without weapon and sleep like a baby. The only place I wouldn't be comfortable is a popular campground.
It is okay to be fearful but try not to spread said fear. There are plenty of dangers out there but most are caused by us by being inattentive, stupid, or just plain unlucky.
Be careful out there and enjoy the woods.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:49 PM   #39
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jmg,
if you were bowhunting for deer why would you still be in a tree stand well after dark?
I listened to a hunter (who was thought to be lost or hurt by his partner) explain how he hunts deer and stays in the woods until he no longer can see the whites of their eyes. he told us this after coming out of the woods almost an hour after sundown.
I personally know of someone who was shot through the liver by a family member because they were still in the woods hunting an hour after sundown and the shooter thought he was a deer.
Because I have hunted certain bucks that I know to frequent an area right at, or just after dark. And, in the interest of not spooking him when he is in the area, by climbing out of my tree, I have decided to sit long enough so that he could come in, pass through, and be well on his way before I climb out of my tree. I have also fallen asleep in my tree a half hour or more before sunset and woken up several hours after dark. Sometimes I think my climber may be too comfortable.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:53 PM   #40
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Think what you want, but coyotes are the most furtive of animals.
I sincerely doubt that those were coyotes circling your stand.
Respectfully,
Jim
Come to Westchester county, I'll even let you hunt my land. Sit over, or near, a fresh gut pile and I assure you, your most furtive animals will surprise you with their numbers and their behavior. Ive shot deer in my woods at 4 pm and returned at 6, only to find the entire ass end completely eaten by the dogs. More than once. 20 years ago, we barely ever saw or even heard the coyotes. Nowadays, they're numbers are as high as I have ever seen them. Tons of them around, especially if you have chickens.
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