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Old 11-02-2016, 05:50 PM   #101
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You might think this idea came from Alex Jones but have ever considered that the DEC may be secretly trying to introduce the mountain lion back into the Addacks? Oh I know they vehemently deny such foolish statements but where do you think the Eastern Coyote came from? Do you still think it migrated and morphed itself from our West?
Secret government initiatives sound cool in theory, but are almost universally impractical, especially in the modern era. Cell phones, thumb drives, and no shortage of Edward Snowden wanna-be's make it hard to keep things like that under wraps.

I also highly doubt the DEC would intentionally bring Cougar into the park anyhow...there are a lot of surveys and field studies that would have be conducted prior to making that kind of re-introduction, plus funding for continued observation and population management...the re-introduction of wolves to the American West didn't just happen overnight. Any kind of apex predator re-introduction is going to cost money, time and political willpower...I'm not sure the DEC is up for that kind of endeavor right now.

Also, are you implying that the DEC secretly introduced coyotes to NY state? If so where is your evidence for that? There are a lot of unknown's on this topic, but the predominant theory (supported by many wildlife biologists) is that coyotes naturally migrated into the northeast from their historical range in the southwest...I've never heard of any government effort to bring them into NY, or any state for that matter.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:44 AM   #102
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"Also, are you implying that the DEC secretly introduced coyotes to NY state? If so where is your evidence for that? There are a lot of unknown's on this topic, but the predominant theory (supported by many wildlife biologists) is that coyotes naturally migrated into the northeast from their historical range in the southwest...I've never heard of any government effort to bring them into NY, or any state for that matter."

Well now you have heard it! NY is not the only state involved in this conspiracy theory. The Eastern Coyote is a different critter than the Southwestern Coyote. It is possible that funding and the initiative came from private sources. Of course the States had to be aware of this plan at some level. Coyote placement is old news but cougar seeding isn't.
Hard to believe isn't it!
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Old 11-03-2016, 11:39 AM   #103
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Well now you have heard it! NY is not the only state involved in this conspiracy theory. The Eastern Coyote is a different critter than the Southwestern Coyote. It is possible that funding and the initiative came from private sources. Of course the States had to be aware of this plan at some level. Coyote placement is old news but cougar seeding isn't.
Hard to believe isn't it!
Lol, I've heard a lot of things...that doesn't mean that they have any credibility. So far, the only time I've heard of a supposed covert coyote introduction was from anonymous internet forum poster. Meanwhile there have been countless wildlife studies and environmental articles, backed up by research, which have indicated the most likely reason for NY's current coyote population was due to extirpation of the region's historical predators (wolves, cougar, bear) and a natural migration by coyotes to fill that ecological gap.

Also, it is true that the eastern coyotes are somewhat bigger than the western ones. Again, if you take the time to read some wildlife studies there have been several theories, supported by research, on that topic: one being that coyotes and wolves and have been mating with each other in the wilderness of Ontario, CA to produce bigger, hybrid coyotes; the other being that coyotes have naturally evolved to fill a vacant ecological role. Since there are no longer wolves to fill the role of apex predators and control the ungulates (namely deer), coyotes have evolved to become bigger and more predatory to take their place, or so the theory goes.

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Old 11-03-2016, 01:46 PM   #104
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I agree with you about the hybrid theory but that could have been propagated through man's efforts and then the hybrids were released through seeding programs into the Eastern states. A natural migration of coyotes is a highly remote idea. Sort of like a Disneyworld theme. Just too far fetched to actually happen with the numbers necessary for the populations we see in our environs now. No, the Western Coyote has consistent fur color variations but the Eastern Coyote hide colors are so vastly different from their Western cousins. They run the gamut of variations similar to our domesticated canine pets. That point cannot be ignored and is a sign that man has once again interfered with Mother Nature to bring about desired results.
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Old 11-03-2016, 02:15 PM   #105
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I agree with you about the hybrid theory but that could have been propagated through man's efforts and then the hybrids were released through seeding programs into the Eastern states.
I honestly can't tell if you're joking or serious at this point.

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A natural migration of coyotes is a highly remote idea. Sort of like a Disneyworld theme. Just too far fetched to actually happen with the numbers necessary for the populations we see in our environs now. No, the Western Coyote has consistent fur color variations but the Eastern Coyote hide colors are so vastly different from their Western cousins. They run the gamut of variations similar to our domesticated canine pets. That point cannot be ignored and is a sign that man has once again interfered with Mother Nature to bring about desired results.
So fur color variations are why you think the western coyote didn't migrate into the east? I hate to break it to you, but physical variations within a species are quite common among the different regions. In fact, that's one of the fundamental aspects of natural evolution.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:52 PM   #106
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Let's talk just for a minute about natural migration.
The armadillo was native to the southwest and Mexico.
The little critter made it all the way to Florida without any help.
Pigs were introduced by the Spanish in Florida in the 1500's as a perfect example.
Now, they're everywhere in the S.E.
Natural migration does occur in many species.
Coyotes are the most adaptable of any wild canid, they follow the prey.
They possibly bred with wolves or domestic dogs along the way from the west, accounting for color and size variations.
Cougars require a huge range if they're going to survive. There's just not enough room for them in the ADK's.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:23 PM   #107
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"I honestly can't tell if you're joking or serious at this point."

I wouldn't do that to you Bounder I know you are being serious. I don't know who or what you are defending but my premise is not beyond the possible. I have never seen coyotes out West that have color like our Eastern Yotes. And Jim Scrabble, a cougar can find food in an urban area and has in many circumstances. If they once thrived in the ADK's then they could thrive now. Many more sightings will occur but hard and fast rules take years to establish themselves.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:48 PM   #108
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I wouldn't do that to you Bounder I know you are being serious. I don't know who or what you are defending but my premise is not beyond the possible. I have never seen coyotes out West that have color like our Eastern Yotes.
Well anything is possible. The more relevant question to ask is, "what is probable?"

So far I haven't seen on ounce of evidence to suggest that there was some secret initiative to populate the northeast with coyotes. I have seen many different papers and studies, written by state and independent biologists, which have made strong, well-supported arguments that coyotes naturally moved into the northeast.

I'm not sure why you are so fixated on the color variations. Physical variations within a species are quite common as you look to different regions.

Edit: I have seen examples of both eastern and western coyotes as well. There is a noticeable size difference between the two. The colors vary slightly, but for the most part a coyote looks like a coyote, regardless of the location.
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Old 11-04-2016, 12:31 AM   #109
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If the majority of people supported only "probable" causes versus "possible" causes then we would not have the progress in all areas of our lives which we now enjoy. If this alleged "seeding" effort was true then you would NEVER see any verification or studies until years after it was obvious. I have never seen the different colors out West on a coyote (nor the size) difference as I see with these Eastern coyotes. They obviously did not evolve naturally in the short time they have been observed here in the East. Don't be ridiculous. I have personally seen all rust colored coyotes, black and white, black and grey, brown and white, mostly black, many with large bushy tails, big animals which looked like hybrids. Most sightings were by accident or by surprising them on an ATV. I travel a lot and often bring my ATV with me. Most of these sightings were seen in PA, and NY. I believe there is a reason why more people are seeing more cougars in the mountains. I am merely offering possible explanations.
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Old 11-04-2016, 02:08 PM   #110
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I have never seen the different colors out West on a coyote (nor the size) difference as I see with these Eastern coyotes. They obviously did not evolve naturally in the short time they have been observed here in the East. Don't be ridiculous.
This coming from the guy who is putting out the idea that coyotes were possibly introduced to northeast via some top secret, human-driven initiative that so far no one but himself has heard about.

1) Color variations within a species are very common. Black bear are a good example of that. The coyotes out west look a little different color-wise, but for the most part all coyotes have a similar fur color...I really do think that you're over exaggerating the differences in that regard. The size difference could be for a number of reasons: breedings with wolves; breedings with domestic dogs; a genetic tendency to favor larger-sized coyotes; some combination of all of the above.
2) One of the theories regarding coyotes is that they were always present in the northeast, just not as prevalent as they are today due to the presence of wolves and cougar. When the wolves and cougar were extirpated, the coyote simply grew in number, and size, to fill the vacant roles.

You can play the "it's possible" game all you want, but your "it's possible" theory is up against mountains of documents and studies and years of research, none of which supports this theory of yours. People are naturally inclined to seek out and explain the unknown; the biologists and historians who initially wrote all these reports on coyote behavior and history had to delve into the unknown in order to explore this subject; but they also provided facts and evidence to support their theories and arguments. And that's exactly what you'll have to do if you want this theory of yours to be taken seriously.
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:33 PM   #111
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This forum is composed of experienced hikers, skiers, hunters and fishermen.
If there were cougars in the ADK's, some one of these folks would have seen reliable evidence of kills and sightings.
Cougars leave tracks in the snow.
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:15 PM   #112
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This forum is composed of experienced hikers, skiers, hunters and fishermen.
If there were cougars in the ADK's, some one of these folks would have seen reliable evidence of kills and sightings.
Cougars leave tracks in the snow.
Jim
Your comment makes sense Jim. However people have been reporting sightings. And... who makes a trek to the truly wild and primitive locations when there is snow on the ground? You know how much snow can pile up. Unless you trek with snow shoes miles into our primitive areas that might hold big cats how would you see these tracks?
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:24 PM   #113
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Bounder,

You are entitled to your opinion but I am moved very little by the "mountain" of evidence of which you speak. I didn't know you were a representative of the community of believers/non-believers. I suggest you speak for yourself regarding whether or not my theory is taken seriously or not. If we were in a court of law your last statement would be considered hearsay. You are trying to bring weight to your belief based upon what you think others believe but unless you can produce evidence of these "opinions" I think it best to leave it to our members and lurkers to decide for themselves. This might be a good topic for a Poll.
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Old 11-04-2016, 08:36 PM   #114
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Yes, anything is possible. However, with the vast number of game cameras that are out there now and no clear image of cougar or big foot I remain skeptical. Though I know both of them or, the idea of them, is fundamental.
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:05 PM   #115
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Geo, don't be silly.
Bigfoot is way too smart to get caught on a crystal clear game-cam photo.
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:08 PM   #116
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Yes, anything is possible. However, with the vast number of game cameras that are out there now and no clear image of cougar or big foot I remain skeptical. Though I know both of them or, the idea of them, is fundamental.
Another comment which makes sense and is logical. However I feel the a cougar sighting whether documented by photo or not might lend more credibility than our friend Bigfoot but perhaps BF is smarter than the big cats and knows how to avoid the camera or maybe he shift-shapes into the cougar and then into an owl. This thread is beginning to morph into folklore but I don't want to dismiss that lightly or risk being accused of not being sensitive to our early Americans' feelings toward folklore.
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Old 11-05-2016, 02:04 PM   #117
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This forum is composed of experienced hikers, skiers, hunters and fishermen.
If there were cougars in the ADK's, some one of these folks would have seen reliable evidence of kills and sightings.
Cougars leave tracks in the snow.
Jim
^ This! When the Florida panther was on the verge of extinction in the 50's, 60's and 70's (the population was estimated to be no more than 2 dozen individuals) people were still finding sign and hitting them with their cars. A predator like a cougar can't exist in this kind of country without leaving some sort of sign. Transients are one thing; an actual breeding population is something else entirely, and so far there is no evidence to support that idea.

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Bounder,

You are entitled to your opinion but I am moved very little by the "mountain" of evidence of which you speak. I didn't know you were a representative of the community of believers/non-believers. I suggest you speak for yourself regarding whether or not my theory is taken seriously or not. If we were in a court of law your last statement would be considered hearsay. You are trying to bring weight to your belief based upon what you think others believe but unless you can produce evidence of these "opinions" I think it best to leave it to our members and lurkers to decide for themselves. This might be a good topic for a Poll.
Schultzz, I believe in a preponderance of evidence. Yes, anything is possible, but in order to cull the improbable from the probable, you have to figure out what the evidence supports. And the preponderance of evidence supports 2 different theories: that the coyote naturally migrated into the northeast from their historical southwestern range; or that the coyote were always native to the northeast (just not as populous as they are now due to historical pressure from wolves and cougar).

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself; this being an internet forum, that should go without saying. There is plenty of research to back up what I'm saying. It seems that you're unfamiliar with this research, so I'll provide a few links to get you started:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/72939.html
http://www.dec.ny.gov/pubs/97143.html
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Old 11-05-2016, 03:44 PM   #118
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This is a quote written by you Bounder.
"Also, are you implying that the DEC secretly introduced coyotes to NY state? If so where is your evidence for that? There are a lot of unknown's on this topic, but the predominant theory (supported by many wildlife biologists) is that coyotes naturally migrated into the northeast from their historical range in the southwest...I've never heard of any government effort to bring them into NY, or any state for that matter."

Here is a quote from one of your listed resources.

"While coyotes are now widespread in New York, they only recently became established here. Interestingly, they did not enter from the west as one might expect, but instead passed through Canada north of the Great Lakes before turning south into northern New York. By the late 1930s and '40s, coyotes were established in Franklin County, and by the 1980s, coyotes were found throughout the state except in New York City and on Long Island".

The latter info contradicts your above statement. So much for "mountains of evidence". Also, another quote from your references: ""While coyotes are now widespread in New York, they only recently became established here." ONLY RECENTLY BECAME ESTABLISHED HERE. That statement to me is an indication that the coyote had some "help" becoming established here. It would not surprise me if somewhere in the environs of NY and PA there have been "coyote farms" moderately large areas of private wild land where coyotes with a GPS collar could be kept track of and kept within a boundary with a "shock device" to keep them from wandering too far just as in a domestic application. Since they would be acting naturally and hunting they would not have been fed. I'll bet your mind is spinning now. Sounds incredible doesn't it? When the hybrid coyotes (which were most likely gathered from Canada and through special permits from Canada), became ready to be released the were gathered up and released in pairs (like Noah's Ark) and released throughout the state. Possibly a tri-state effort. For a while PA kept collars on some of these coyotes to track them. That IS a fact.

Now on to cougars.
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Old 11-05-2016, 04:05 PM   #119
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The following exerpt is taken from an article published about five years ago.

“I think the No. 1 thing we need in the East is the cougar,” Foreman said, a project proposed about 25 years ago in a study by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. “They came up with about 20 different spots in the southeastern United States as possible cougar recovery areas, but nothing really came of it.”
Research in Uruguay showed that when the black jaguars began disappearing, the ecosystem began breaking down. A study at the University of Wisconsin found that there are fewer and less diversity of wildflowers when there are no wolves or lions in the area.
Foreman said cougars could blend in well in the eastern United States.
“There could be cougars out there,” he said of the preserve, “and nobody would ever know. They might see some tracks on the trails, but that would be it.”

The following are comments from people responding to a statement released by PA DER. These comments are not offered as any evidence because they are obviously anecdotal and empirical but they do have some value as local input.

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Cougars are not extinct... A while back 10-15 years the gov reintruduced a ton to where I grew up... they are flurrishing and breeding and everywhere
# Posted By lol | 3/9/11 10:30 AM
when the wolves disappeared in montana they introduced a foreign species,and everything is just dandy now. so why not just bring in some african lions to replace the cougars.
# Posted By cowboy | 3/9/11 10:31 AM
It never fails our fed gov. always hires bookworms to do research instead of hiring real people who don't have a bunch of letters after their name.I am 44 y/o and have seen several big cats in my lifetime all east of the mississippi. Most have been black and three were cougars and I live in Ky.I know what bobcats are too, these are real big cats and we don't need you putting more animals out on us mountains. Take all that wasted money and hire local people to do the hunting.Then you city people might get to see what really exist here in the woods.Thank you
# Posted By Kurth | 3/9/11 10:31 AM
The research of the moutain lion is false.There are more lions running around than in the past 10 years.Thanks to the PA Game commision.They are stocking them even though they deny it it is true. Along with the introduction of the Timber Wolfe. I am a abbot hunter.I seen lions that were hit by vehicles. I have 3 of them at my cabin,wiping out the deer herd. It is lie all around. There is very little difference if any from the eastern cougar to a cougar. So how can they tell from there reaserch on the cougar?
# Posted By Jeff | 3/9/11 10:31 AM
What About the Cougars that were traded for wild turkeys with Canada and planted in Penna. About 20-25 yrs. ago?
# Posted By Harry | 3/9/11 10:31 AM
I believe your wrong my husband and I saw a couger in our neighbors yard. in 2001 in Winchendon ma. What a beautiful animal. although we never saw it again, they are around and living in massachusetts!!
# Posted By big cat believer | 3/14/11 9:33 AM
I noticed the story of the extinction of the Eastern Couger on the Knoxville News-Sentinel Web site. I wanted to throw in a possible sighting to your list, just in case. I was driving down Sandbridge Road in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on my way home about a month ago and noticed what appeared to be a very fast wild cat running across the road. The area it was crossing was in the Back Bay National Wildlife Refuge right before you get to Sandbridge Beach. The cat was medium sized, probably anywhere from 25-50 pounds, appearing very muscular and seemed to move with its front two front legs in unison. It looked grayish, with very fine short-hair or hairless.
# Posted By J. Waylon | 3/14/11 10:31 AM
I live in Eastern NC (very lightly populated in most areas) and was driving home 2 weeks ago from the Raleigh/Durham area when I spotted a roadkill along the side of I-40E in rural Wake County. No doubt about it, it was a cougar of some type-tawny, flat fur with a big ,square and blocky head. Ears were widely rounded at the ends and the body and head were much larger than that of a bobcat. I could kick myself for not turning around and driving back to take a picture! Reported to both NC and US Fish and Wildlife but have not heard a word back from either. My theory is that both agencies really know that cougars are around and about, but know that they are somewhat precarious as a species and so do not want them hunted, hence the "extinct" label. Also know of another very reliable sighting closer to home- The director of our county museum told me several years ago that a large cat as long as the width of her car jumped completely over the top of the car and ran into the woods.
# Posted By Suzette | 4/4/11 2:58 PM
<The Service will work closely with state partners, non-governmental organizations and the public to identify areas with the potential for success before taking any steps to reintroduce the species.> The feasability study and suitable areas have already been researched and identified by the field Biologists: Nth Florida & South GA have been identified as possible panther habitat, there is no good reason for the agencies not to be pushing fwd with public education or reintroduction, it is time they got to work and continue with the business of restoring a healthy panther population, in fact over 75% of people polled for reitroducing them said yes to the panther. - I live in Florida and have read the studies.
# Posted By Carmel. | 6/13/11 8:56 AM
Well the scat I found resembles the mountain lion description best.
# Posted By Eleanor Smith | 10/16/11 3:52 PM
I'm doing a report on cougars and looking for info got any suggestions???
# Posted By Bailey Age:12 | 1/15/13 11:35 AM
Just spotted a roughly 4' long cat. tail about 2' long. Looked grey or near black. Seen at night 20' away.
Spotted in birdsboro on 3/11/13 about midnight. Friend and coworker also spotted it in day light at cpl hundred yards.
# Posted By Shay Eddy | 3/16/13 11:20 PM
For several years I owned a property in Sullivan County near the Loyalsock State Forest. While driving down a remote road through the forest one fall afternoon, I observed a cougar walking across a field. My view was unobstructed. At it got to the other side of the field, it briefly turned so I had a clear view of its entire body. It was about 1.5 miles from my house. Three months later, I arrived at my house after a fresh snowfall, there was a set of fresh tracks that crossed my property. The animal actually had walked up to the corner of my house and urinated. The tracks belonged to a cougar.
In my opinion, The Game Commission won't acknowledge their existence for a good reason: If they admitted cougars existed in Pa, they would then have to "manage" them. It's simply easier to deny they exist.
# Posted By Mike L | 9/6/13 11:20 PM
I was in Conklin NY Aug.7,8,and 9th,and there was a Cougar hit and killed by vehicle very recently,many people have pictures of the animal on their cell phones,so don't be surprised when it shows up on FB.
# Posted By jim quesinberry | 8/11/14 11:35 AM
Yes, just like Suzette, we saw a small cougar dead on the side of the road just east of Magnolia-Kenansville exit on I-40 (NC) on Aug. 23, 2014. Did anyone else see it? Traffic was somewhat heavy and I could not stop.
# Posted By Liz | 8/24/14 9:37 AM
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Old 11-05-2016, 04:48 PM   #120
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