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Old 06-12-2010, 04:30 PM   #41
Vermont Scott
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Originally Posted by DSettahr View Post
It's a sad incident.

Unfortunately, very few people are actually as good at swimming as they think they are.
I'm not the worlds best swimmer but even if I was I would still wear a PFD. Even if you are a great swimmer it doesn't matter if you are knocked out. This poor guy was run over by the boat and had propeller cuts on his neck and head.

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Old 06-12-2010, 05:14 PM   #42
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Yeah, one doesn't challenge an aircraft carrier from a rubber dinghy.
Guess you never heard of the SEALS!!
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:03 PM   #43
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Since we digress

This might be a good time to mention the disagreement that almost sundered the FreeStyle paddling group.

We'd had a spat of motorboat and jet ski rundowns in the late 90s and decided to go proactive. We selected the Smith and Wesson stainless auto platform because it was double action and American made and took magazines for quick reloads. There was some grumbling that custom Colt Autos were more accurate, mostly me, but that was voted down. We agreed we should have a common round so one FreeStyler could share magazines with another. Then it got ugly.

The women demanded 9mm autos for reduced recoil and maximum magazine capacity. The guys wanted 45 auto, on the basis that once you've decided to shoot at a motorized craft, the bigger hole would be better.

Coffee was served with or without cream and sugar; the obverse of normal practice. Married folks, and even folks in love, ceased cohabiting. The blanket was about to be torn multiply when S&W came out with the 40 caliber S&W. Less recoil for the smaller; pretty good sized drain holes for the more aggressive; life became good again. Magazines were exchanged as needed.

The anti motorboat/jet-ski initiative continued. Lou Glaros was a guidance engineer at Martin Marietta. While he worked on the Sidewinder, he figured we didn't need ten miles of range and probably couldn't afford $500K a Jet-ski, so he modified the shoulder fired, 2 mile range, Stinger's heat seeking guidance so a much lower thermal image would suffice for targeting.

I was with him on the first test, with two of the hybrids mounted on Lou's Whaler in Florida. He was at 90 dg to the test site on his Hobie Cat with a video camera.

A jet ski appeared and entered the area. Lou radioed to fire and I did. The missile streaked out, acquired the target, traced a curved path to it and voila! No jet ski. We agreed to chat about what to do with the oil slick later.

Then a runabout entered the target area. Lou radioed to fire again, which I did, while noticing Lou lighting a big cigar. he was always enamored of the fighter pilot ethos. The missile streaked out, seemed to acquire the runabout, then turned and streaked towards the HobieCat.

It was terrible! The Hobie, Lou and video camera gone, along with most of a perfectly good Cuban cigar. On the bright side, no oil slick! But, with our engineer gone, no chance to fine tune the heat seeking device, so FreeStylers settled back into the more defensive posture of using defensive products against motorboats.

OK, that's meant to be amusing, and maybe cathartic.

In reality, we're kinda like bikers with bumperstickers reading "Start Seeing Motorcycles" That is wishful thinking. We need to do what we can to protect ourselves: bright boats, bright and worn PFDs and, maybe flags on big water. WinterWarlock is very correct; it comes down to gross weight. Mass X Velocity squared; the motorboats wins almost every time. Be careful out there!

Last edited by charlie wilson; 07-02-2010 at 02:04 PM..
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:14 PM   #44
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We get a bee in our bonnet when a paddler gets killed by a motorboat on a lake crowded with motorboats. Do we get a bee in our bonnet when a motorcyclist is killed by a car on the freeway during rush hour? If all the rules of the road and common sense were always followed we wouldn't see fatalities in either situation, but that won't come until the next evolutionary stage in the human species. In the case of the freeway, most of the traffic during rush hour is folks going to or from work; neither destination nor time of travel is easily changed. In the case of the waterway, both the lake and the timing are more or less arbitrary choices. From what I've read, there's plenty of negligence to go around; that includes lack of foresight in choosing a boat color.
Plenty of negligence no doubt, all on the powerboat. Since you brought up motorcycles vs. four wheeled vehicles. Who is almost always the loser in that match-up? Might doesn't make right. I do care about bikers being run down just as much as I would a kayaker. I take the extra time to look out for them. I'm sure
you've heard of the slogan "Share the Road". What it means is the road doesn't exist only for cars, other people use various modes of transportation. Motorcycles, bicycles, & pedestrians. Same principle goes for the water. To suggest that kayakers stick to the shoreline is like telling a bicyclist to stay on the sidewalk. Have you ever watched someone in a car pass a bicycle by merely an inch or two, when they could have gone over to the left a whole lane if they wanted to be safe? The same type of people who would do that also exist on the water in a greater proportions to normal people ratio & do that sort of thing all the time. I think Lake George could use some serious law enforcement to rein in all the yahoos, whether they own property or not. Crack down on them, while making money from citations. If the sheriff had a clue about the law & some guts, he would charge that man with involuntary or reckless manslaughter. If the worst you'll get is a ticket for something like this, it will not jar other ignorant people to think or deter them from their ways. But I suppose that wouldn't go over well with the powerboat happy property owners. Is he worried he won't get re-elected? Shouldn't the state police get involved with this? I don't like the sheriffs "oh well, he should have worn his PFD attitude." He would still be dead from being run over. This isn't some minor accident caused by the kayaker not wearing his PFD. Focus on the the cause! Now I know why some people choose trial by judge rather than jury.
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Old 06-13-2010, 12:12 PM   #45
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This is almost off topic... On a biking vacation in the Netherlands recently, I couldn't help but notice how polite car and even semi-truck drivers were when passing bicycles. They'd slow right down and then move far to the left when passing. When I mentioned this to the owner of a bread/breakfast I was staying at, she said that whenever there is an accident between a motor vehicle and a bike, the motor vehicle driver will *always* be found to be at fault in a court case. Dunno how true that is, but it does seem to support 8thdays' suggestion about better law enforcement.
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Old 06-13-2010, 01:45 PM   #46
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This is almost off topic... On a biking vacation in the Netherlands recently, I couldn't help but notice how polite car and even semi-truck drivers were when passing bicycles. They'd slow right down and then move far to the left when passing. When I mentioned this to the owner of a bread/breakfast I was staying at, she said that whenever there is an accident between a motor vehicle and a bike, the motor vehicle driver will *always* be found to be at fault in a court case. Dunno how true that is, but it does seem to support 8thdays' suggestion about better law enforcement.
Bikes are a regular mode of transportation in Europe and Asia. people who prefer exercise and who are environmentally aware so they are accepted as much as a means of transportation as an automobile, unlike the US where bikes are considered "recreational". So there are stricter laws and better enforcement.

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Old 06-13-2010, 02:10 PM   #47
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I'm not the worlds best swimmer but even if I was I would still wear a PFD. Even if you are a great swimmer it doesn't matter if you are knocked out. This poor guy was run over by the boat and had propeller cuts on his neck and head.

Scott
Exactly.. and the harder you swim, the more the blood will start to flow. Making the situation even worse. Best think to do is to WEAR your PFD... because you are WANT to, and not because the law tells you too.

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Old 06-13-2010, 02:46 PM   #48
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.....Best think to do is to WEAR your PFD... because you are WANT to, and not because the law tells you too.
Agreed, at least until not-wearing causes a significant expense to emergency services--and then perhaps the better answer would be to bill them for the emergency services. Along the same minimum-necessary-regulation line of thought, perhaps we should all encourage news media to give thorough coverage to the accidents that do happen, thereby encouraging people to take effective precautions. And perhaps similar public media attention is necessary to inform (or remind?) motorboat operators of their responsibility for damage (or endangerment?) caused by their wake.
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Old 06-14-2010, 04:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by charlie wilson View Post
This might be a good time to mention the disagreement that almost sundered the FreeStyle paddling group.

We'd had a spat of motorboat and jet ski rundowns in the late 90s and decided to go proactive. We selected the Smith and Wesson stainless auto platform because it was double action and American made and took magazines for quick reloads. There was some grumbling that custom Colt Autos were more accurate, mostly me, but that was voted down. We agreed we should have a common round so one FreeStyler could share magazines with another. Then it got ugly.

...

OK, that's meant to be amusing, and maybe cathartic.

In reality, we're kinda like bikers with bumperstickers reading "Start Seeing Motorcycles" That is wishful thinking. We need to do what we can to protect ourselves: bright boats, bright and worn PFDs and, maybe flags on big water. WinterWarlock is very correct; it comes down to gross weight. Mass X Velocity squared; the motorboats wins almost every time. Be careful out there!
Some friends and I had to get proactive on a jet skier that was trying to capsize or otherwise trash us. He would stand on the nose and hose us with the jet and then make high speed passes only feet from us. We broke into 2 groups six feet apart and he took the bait, making a high speed run between us. He learned what the other use of a throw bag is when we lifted the line out of the water. We took his key and fuel cap and left him there, about a mile and a half from the boat launch.
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Old 06-14-2010, 05:28 PM   #50
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Very Cool!

Frontier justice dispensed at the scene of the crime, very cool indeed!

Last edited by charlie wilson; 06-14-2010 at 06:56 PM..
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Old 06-14-2010, 06:16 PM   #51
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Frontier justice dispensed at the scene of the crime, very Cool indeed!
Not quite frontier justice. We didn't hang him. We just clothes lined him!
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:18 PM   #52
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I'm buying a flare gun & if it looks like someone is about to kill me I will aim for their head if possible. I know they're not that accurate, but I'll do the best I can with it.
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:46 AM   #53
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He learned what the other use of a throw bag is when we lifted the line out of the water. We took his key and fuel cap and left him there, about a mile and a half from the boat launch.
Sweeeeeeet
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:29 AM   #54
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throwbag

I really wanna try that!
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:25 PM   #55
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WOW BEV UR ONE LADY IM NOT MESSIN WIT just desserts from what i can see
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:51 AM   #56
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New announcement in the kayaker case...

DA announces they are looking into filing more charges, but the boater's attorney is trying to put the blame on the kayaker for not wearing his PFD, and get this...for having a dark colored boat!

LINK
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:59 AM   #57
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DA announces they are looking into filing more charges, but the boater's attorney is trying to put the blame on the kayaker for not wearing his PFD, and get this...for having a dark colored boat!

LINK
Wonder if that is the same attorney that tried to pin the blame for an accident that killed two people in a stationary boat on the people in that boat. Even though the moving boat was travelling at 100 mph at night and the operator blew a .35 and got BUI and thrown in the slammer(his boat wound up 150 feet in the woods...it had 825 horsepower) his attorney is saying the cause of the accident was lack of lights on the other boat.

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Old 07-09-2010, 12:43 PM   #58
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Wonder if that is the same attorney that tried to pin the blame for an accident that killed two people in a stationary boat on the people in that boat. Even though the moving boat was traveling at 100 mph at night and the operator blew a .35 and got BUI and thrown in the slammer(his boat wound up 150 feet in the woods...it had 825 horsepower) his attorney is saying the cause of the accident was lack of lights on the other boat.

If not the same attorney, it's the same sort of logic.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:43 PM   #59
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well it's not the attorney's fault, just his job. no way a judge should agree with it though IMO
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:48 PM   #60
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well it's not the attorney's fault, just his job. no way a judge should agree with it though IMO
If it was a Public Defender, I'd agree with you, but hired defense attorney's are not required to take a particular case.
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