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Marcellus Shale: An Environmental Disaster In The Making

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  • Cow farms are one of the worst atmospheric and water polluters out there.

    How ironic, I'm sure they were concerned about the environment when they moved there and ruined the wilderness by turning it into farmland. But now that they do they don't want anyone else working the land.

    The first comment made me chuckle.

    "Will we allow the air polluting truck traffic to plug up our streets and roads
    .... …and discourage tourists (and wine tasters) from coming…and spending?"

    Ever been to one Skaneateles in the summertime, man the car traffic is outragous.
    A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Neil View Post
      Since this post there have been quite a few more (do the arithmetic, it's easy ) with no politics and nothing offensive.

      I believe it is possible to discuss the subject with a few limitations: no personal or offensive posts and no politics.
      Depends on if you are an honest person and work in the gas industry, you basically got called a liar no matter what your observations are. I could point out others but then again I handle my moderation observations via pm.
      A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

      Comment


      • Sure, I got your point about the detergent. The amount of chemical exposure we live with is disturbing. Still, I think there is reason to be concerned about a process that will pump large amounts of these chemicals into the ground at concentrations that likely far exceed what's in detergent. Exxon (http://www.exxonmobilperspectives.co...its-important/) says that fracking fluid contains only about 1% chemical additives. An average HVH well uses 1 to 8 million gallons of fracking fluid. At the low end that's still 10,000 gallons of chemicals per well. True, it is going WAY below groundwater, but this site (http://wri.eas.cornell.edu/gas_wells_waste.html) seems to indicate that the real water contamination risk is from flowback from the well.

        Not only has the technique evolved, it is substantially different. Such that using old style vertically hydrofracked wells as analogs for the potential safety of high volume horizontally fracked wells is totally invalid. This link leads to a factsheet (pdf) comparing old and new hydrofracking. It comes from an anti-fracking group but it's well referenced from the 1992 GEIS and the 2009 SGEIS. (http://tcgasmap.org/default.asp?meta...#Fact%20Sheets)

        I agree with you absolutely about the safety hurdle being absurd. There is no 100% safe extraction of any energy resource. As a landowner in the thick of it though, I'd like a lot more information than what's currently available. I've got a lot at stake here, but frankly I think all of us in NYS do.

        I've got to say this thread is a good discussion, certainly more reasoned and civil than a lot of meetings I've been to on this issue.




        Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
        T

        I was the one who posted the detergent link, my main point was those are substances that are going into the water table as opposed to 8,000 feet under it. Yes the technique has evolved from the first well and they can frack rock that they could not in the past but there is plenty of history as to the process.

        I would like the government to say drilling in the gulf of mexico or Alaska's North Slope is a 100% risk-free by a third party that is fully confessed, is ordained and is a female Eunich before they allow it.

        There should be a hurdle for safety, but that hurdle should not be set at an impassable height in the auspices of not outrightly banning the process.

        Comment


        • Just my 2 pennys worth, and no you don't get your change back LOL

          It would be nice if we could zoom forward and backward in time to see what ecological perils everything we do / build / use today has that could be harmful
          But we don't , unfortunately , have that ability.
          So , I agree with Hawk , in that an independent oversight group of scientists and monitors get engaged in this kinda stuff . Not just fracking , but forestry , landfills , batteries , electric cars , animal feeds , right down to the stuff folks wash down the sink drain.
          Unbeholding to both big business money as well as Go'vt bureaucracy .
          That would at least make for some fair and unbiased insight , reporting and recommendations by a 3rd party that is only supported by the consumers and not the buisness' or Gov't.
          Private companies ( paid by the consumer , we have over 300 million consumers in the U.S. ) can distill hundred year old info with all the newest studies in a reasonable time frame .
          Phil



          “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.” —Herbert Spencer

          Comment


          • This is unfortunate, and I have seen first hand how folks who work in the gas industry (even those who work at long preexisting sites) are very often given the default position of villain and liar. This just shuts any meaningful discussion down. Just my opinion, but I don't think there's any black or white with this issue, it's very complex.


            Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
            Depends on if you are an honest person and work in the gas industry, you basically got called a liar no matter what your observations are. I could point out others but then again I handle my moderation observations via pm.

            Comment


            • This link is interesting, especially since France has banned fracking in France....MMMM ..maybe they want the gas and profits without endangering their own country....

              Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

              When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
              Henry David Thoreau

              CL50-#23

              Comment


              • Originally posted by chairrock View Post
                This link is interesting, especially since France has banned fracking in France....MMMM ..maybe they want the gas and profits without endangering their own country....

                http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...e-griddle.html
                Sounds familiar, like what USA / NY has been doing.

                Foreign companies are making big purchase of US Shale assets and E&P companies. This will get interesting, especially now that the economy is improving slightly, the hard decision of utilizing the resource domestically or allowing it to be exported needs to be made (along with wether it should be harvested in general). Many professionals feel that shale assets and companies have reached bubble proportions particularly with Natural Gas prices so cheap relative to coal and oil.

                Last edited by Pumpkin QAAD; 01-07-2012, 02:14 PM.
                A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

                Comment


                • How about if some of the requiremenst for obtaing a permit to do fracking included.

                  1. A Substantial bond against any pollution or damage done?

                  2. With the exception of highly skiiled engineering ppositions, all labor would have to be from the local area.

                  3. A requirement that all energy obtained be used locally wherever impossible, and never exported?

                  4. Full disclosure on the names and the amounts of all chemicals used in the fracking process?
                  "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by redhawk View Post
                    How about if some of the requiremenst for obtaing a permit to do fracking included.

                    1. A Substantial bond against any pollution or damage done?

                    2. With the exception of highly skiiled engineering ppositions, all labor would have to be from the local area.

                    3. A requirement that all energy obtained be used locally wherever impossible, and never exported?

                    4. Full disclosure on the names and the amounts of all chemicals used in the fracking process?


                    Hawk,

                    These are all good ideas which would eliminate most of the opposition. Unfortunately, it makes too much sense.

                    As far as what side to believe, there is an old saying along the lines of "Never ask a man his opinion if his job depends on the answer."
                    Last edited by Glen; 01-08-2012, 07:11 PM.
                    “Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
                    ― Cormac McCarthy

                    Comment


                    • Like a Doctor or a Judge, right? The only people that intimately know the process are the drillers. I have to think there are some honest folks in the lot that would blow the whistle. I don't have faith in the DECs skill set in this area that is for sure.

                      I agree with the 4 point plan too, hopefully Texas and Canada don't adopt it though New York would be screwed.
                      A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
                        Like a Doctor or a Judge, right? The only people that intimately know the process are the drillers. I have to think there are some honest folks in the lot that would blow the whistle. I don't have faith in the DECs skill set in this area that is for sure.

                        I agree with the 4 point plan too, hopefully Texas and Canada don't adopt it though New York would be screwed.



                        Pumpkin,

                        Doctors and Judge's jobs do not depend on their decision/prognosis. It is what it is. Nobody fires them if you don't like what you hear.

                        I wouldn't count on too many whistleblowers in this economy. How many were there on Wall Street during that orgy?
                        “Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
                        ― Cormac McCarthy

                        Comment


                        • I would have to respectfully disagree with your conclusion. I think their jobs most certainly depend on their judgements and opinions.

                          Why doesn't the DEC hire some of these drilling experts and create a legitimate regulator and not an organization critics can call a rubberstamp. Why don't the feds do that?

                          On the same token the SEC or whatever institution follows that one should hire Wall Street people and be a proper regulator.

                          If the SEC listened, Bernie Madoff would've been caught years prior. There were whistleblowers prior to the financial meltdown, unfortunately noone cared. There also was a Lehman whistleblower and everyone with a pulse knew Fannie and Freddie were toxic. Nobody cared. Maybe that's the case with the fracking drillers and noone is listening, but if there are crimes being committed those drillers know it and someone will talk.

                          A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

                          Comment


                          • Royal Dutch Shell owns alot of the leases in Tioga County PA. Some of the issues with hiring local have been that the locals do not have the necessary drilling experience. Some locals do get hired. Local business, motels, hotels, restaurants, etc are doing well. I think local construction has been helped. There are several new hotels in Mansfield PA and another one is getting built.

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                            • Certainly a big tax revenue increase in a depressed area.

                              I'm not sure how much we can trust these guys opinion

                              A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

                              Comment




                              • NYS goes after Pa. drillers
                                Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

                                When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
                                Henry David Thoreau

                                CL50-#23

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