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-   "By the Fireside" (http://www.adkforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=76)
-   -   Carbon Copy (http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=24001)

Zach 01-27-2017 10:30 AM

The hull looks great, I'm amazed at how well it retained the shape. I don't have much experience with foam, but I hope it will do what you want it to. Thanks for keeping on with the updates, I am always interested to see projects as they unfold.
Zach

stripperguy 01-28-2017 06:15 PM

Well, here's a little more progress. I sanded those added foam chunks to match the hull profile, and rounded the ends. I cut up some more stem strips and wetted them out. Another hour or so. Now, I wait. Soon, I'll add a couple layers of glass to the stems, then I'm ready for some covering coats.

Here's the one end...I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I've lost track of which end is bow and which is the stern. I think it will be obvious once I flip it around.
Anyway, this is the end that I had initially closed in with a layer of carbon, and later added the foam. You can't see the foam under the carbon, but trust me, it's there.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TA...=w1410-h944-no

This is the other end, that has foam only. You can see the foam peeking out from under the soon to be wet out carbon.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vo...=w1410-h944-no

And here's how it looks after wetting out the 2 layers of bias cut carbon. I did have to wet out each layer separately.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WG...=w1410-h944-no

I'll also add some Dynel to the stems, for abrasion resistance. That Dynel sucks up the epoxy like an old sweatshirt and always looks ugly as can be. No big deal, I do plan to paint this hull on the outside, so none of the ugly will show through.

Glen 01-31-2017 01:20 PM

Stripperguy-

Interesting project and great tutorial. One thought, is there any concern with the compressibility of the foam leading to cracking of the carbon should the stems strike anything?

stripperguy 01-31-2017 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 255729)
Stripperguy-

Interesting project and great tutorial. One thought, is there any concern with the compressibility of the foam leading to cracking of the carbon should the stems strike anything?

Good question, Glen.
The foam that remained after it was profiled was a bit smaller than the carbon/glass over foam gunnels on the stripped Kite.
The stripped Kite has a single layer of 5.5 oz carbon, and a layer of 6 oz glass. Here's a look at those gunnels, in process.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dW...=w1410-h944-no


Those gunnels easily survived cartopping directly against my Thule racks. I cinch down the boat with a 1" nylon strap, looped under the racks. I would estimate I apply 1/2 to 3/4 of my body weight when tightening. All this boils down to an estimated contact stress in excess of 1,000 psi. I have not seen any permanent deformations due to those stresses.

So, my belief is that I should not see any deformations to the stems due to impact stress. I have a single layer of 5.9 oz carbon below the foam, and 2 layers of 5.9 carbon, and 2 layers of 6 oz glass over the foam. BTW, the foam is Divinycell from DIAB, specifically made for composite construction.
They build high performance sailboats and experimental aircraft from this stuff.
I have no intention of paddling the Screamin' Sixties, nor flying this Kite at 10,000 ft!!

It should be OK. Besides, cut open nearly any modern high performance canoe, and you'll likely find the same sort of layup.

Zach 01-31-2017 07:38 PM

It's looking good, I'll be interested to see how it goes on. I can't remember anymore how to tell one end from the other, except for the amount of rocker and that would be hard to tell when it's been moved from where it started. On my Kite I had strips that were spalted on one end, so I put all of those ends to the bow and then I could check which end was which whenever I needed to during the build. Thanks for keeping us up to date.
Zach

stripperguy 01-31-2017 08:03 PM

Zach,
I went back and reviewed my photos. When I first had the Kite on the sawhorses, it was bow towards the front of the house. Later, when I supported the Kite on the forms, it was stern towards the front of the house. And that's how the carbon copy remains. Once I really looked at it, it's pretty clear which end is which.

I did apply a covering coat of resin last night, and shortly I'll head downstairs to apply the final covering coat. Also, I think I may have figured a way to make lemonade out of those sloppy sheer lines!

stripperguy 02-01-2017 11:38 PM

Well, the carbon copy Kite is on the cradle!
I weighed it after the second fill coat of epoxy...19.5 lbs and counting.
It'll lose a little when I trim the excess sheer, then start gaining again as the trim is added.

And now we can inspect those crazy foam stems. Remember, one end, the bow, has carbon on both sides of the foam. The other end, stern, has no carbon on the inside of the foam, yet. The stern will have the foam shaped to a pleasant fillet, then a layer of carbon goes on. I don't think I'll have any bulkheads, definitely no decks. Probably 3 thwarts and a pair of seat supports, all carbon fiber over foam, and a full carbon fiber tractor seat. I am also forced into carbon/glass over foam gunnels by my self imposed weight goals.

Enough BS, you guys only look at the photo anyway...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oy...=w1410-h944-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SW...=w1410-h944-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RE...=w1410-h944-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Mb...=w1410-h944-no


And here is a link to all of the photos.

1894 02-03-2017 11:57 AM

Looking good !

Cold River Bob 02-03-2017 12:36 PM

It looks awesome I been watching this While I finish the stripper up that I stared. I'd like to try something like that on one of my 12 footers.

JohnnyVirgil 02-03-2017 11:16 PM

Man! You are a brave soul. Now I'm eyeing my gel-coated Bell Morningstar and thinking about carbon fiber...57lbs is getting too heavy.

stripperguy 02-03-2017 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1894 (Post 255846)
Looking good !

Thanks, but it looks better in the brochure than in real life!!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Cold River Bob (Post 255848)
It looks awesome I been watching this While I finish the stripper up that I stared. I'd like to try something like that on one of my 12 footers.

Bob,
You could probably get a 12 footer down around 16 to 18 lbs! How cool would that be? If you going to give it a shot, don't add gunnels on the stripper until after you copy it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyVirgil (Post 255865)
Man! You are a brave soul. Now I'm eyeing my gel-coated Bell Morningstar and thinking about carbon fiber...57lbs is getting too heavy.

Brave? No, blissfully ignorant. I jest, I was sweating bullets when it came time to release the shell. So much so, that I didn't start this thread until after I successfully popped it free!

oldcoach 02-04-2017 05:27 PM

It's been fun watching this thread/story Mike. But I'm curious about one thing. How do you plan to mount those two cushy/tan seats I saw in the background of a couple of the photos?.........:)

stripperguy 02-05-2017 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldcoach (Post 255882)
It's been fun watching this thread/story Mike. But I'm curious about one thing. How do you plan to mount those two cushy/tan seats I saw in the background of a couple of the photos?.........:)

Hahaha...I was expecting comments about the spare vanity in the background.
That chair was one from my departed FIL's room...can't seem to part with it.

Glad you're enjoying the ride with me, I've had a few bumps along the way, literally, but I think I can surmount them.

stripperguy 02-05-2017 10:27 AM

A little more progress...
I clamped a left over cedar strip to the carbon copy sheer line and scribed a trim line. Then I used my Roto-Zip to make lots of dust and trim the excess sheer. The sheer is maybe 70% OK, but definitely has its problems. In a few spots, it's pretty darn wavy and I've been struggling with ideas to salvage the mess.

Here's a look at the trimmed shell

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/to...=w1410-h944-no

I know, it looks bad, doesn't it?
But wait, it gets worse, here is a look at the waviest portion of the sheer

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/19...=w1410-h944-no

All of the shell has really firmed up, I can tweak the overall shape slightly (must be careful to not screw up the rocker) but that sheer line may as well be cut from stone.
All is not lost, though. I think I can cut some slightly oversized foam for the gunnels. Then sand the gunnels to a smooth profile, essentially ignoring the wavy sheer partially encased in them.

Here's a look at some left over foam sections stuck on the sheer for illustrative purposes.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Oj...=w1410-h944-no

Sure, it's got some wiggles (foam is only resting there unsecured except for gravity and friction) but even at that width, I would have plenty of stock to work with to straighten things out. The worst portion of the sheer would be forever encased inside the gunnels, although there would still some waviness left exposed. For a first effort, and maybe a sub 25 lb build, I can live with that!

So that's the plan:
Carbon over foam bottom stiffening
A little oversized gunnels section to mask to lousy sheer
All carbon over foam gunnels, thwarts and seat frame

Oh, and for those of you keeping track, or at least wondering, I have 13 hours invested so far.

Fisheater 02-05-2017 12:10 PM

I knew I checked back in for a good reason! I must admit I checked in hoping for some backcountry powder shots. Then when you stated the Kite was to be a plug, I assumed that it would be sacrificial. I was greatly relieved to read you were hoping to salvage the Kite.
I understand in the Adirondacks there is quite a bit of portaging in your travels. My current fishing canoe is 60 lbs. per manufacturer. I would probably be happy with a 60 lb. decked Kite. The one thing I notice in an Adirondack canoe is how high the seats are set up. I know that configuration allows for some slick paddling. I wouldn't dare sit that high on the Great Lakes. Usually wind has me paddling with a double blade. I really enjoy a windless, after ice, morning on Lake Huron. That is when you paddle slow, because of the cold water. I always enjoy the fish I catch with the single blade a bit more.
Sorry for getting off track. Seeing your canoes makes me think about building one. I don't think I will build one in 2017, but I don't think I am that far away. I have enjoyed the thread. I look forward to following your progress to completion. I want you to know that I will not mind if you take a powder day or two off from the build, but please take some photos. I think you should take Hickory Skier with you as well on those powder days. The two of you team up for some nice photos!
Cheers,
Bob

stripperguy 02-05-2017 03:12 PM

Eater of Fish (Bob),
Backcountry has not been very good around here, central Vermont is OK, as is central ADK's, but I've been consumed getting my house ready to sell.

The Kite was designed with a real seat, not a sit-on-the-bottom cushion like a pack boat. That's one of the reasons I built it...I really don't like the pack boat (or kayak) seating position. A higher seat gives me many leg position options and for me, allows day long paddling without wearing out my knees or back. I'm sure you could alter the design a bit to add long decks, yet still keep the weight low. I am enjoying this build too!!

hickoryskier has been very busy at his work and wasn't allowed to take any free time, except for his daughter's wedding last week. He swears that we'll get some good skiing in once the backcountry conditions improve.

Just now, I'm heading down to the basement to wet out the inner stem piece of carbon at the stern. Not much will happen for while thereafter, I'm leaving in a few days for a family vacation in DisneyWorld, my least favorite place in the world! Last time I was in Florida, my skis buddies were at the epicenter of some crazy powder dump...70 some inches at Plattekill. They sent photos to rub it in!!

stripperguy 02-08-2017 06:47 PM

I think I have a way to make lemonade out of those wavy sheer lines.
I cut the worst of the wavy sections 3/8 inch lower, that eliminated about 75% of the waviness. The balance of the wiggles will now easily sand out when I profile the foam. No time tonight to epoxy the foam in place...I'll be gone for nearly 2 weeks starting tomorrow.

Here's a look at the Divinylcell foam in place. I tried to show the sheer line at its worst.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/80...=w1410-h944-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OR...=w1410-h944-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_0...=w1410-h944-no

The overhanging gunnels at the stems will probably be trimmed back after they're epoxied in place, and another block epoxied at the ends to fill in the underside of the gunnel overhang.

Zach 02-08-2017 09:10 PM

It looks good from here. From the photo it seems that no more than 10% of the width of the gunwale foam would have to be removed to get a nice smooth curve. I have never tried to work with foam other than packing boxes or using foam insulation sheets, so I'm wondering how hard it is to shave away bits along the length without it getting fuzzy or otherwise weird, but I'm sure the carbon will hide it all anyway. I hope you'll enjoy your time away, and that the snow will wait till you return.
Zach

stripperguy 02-08-2017 10:59 PM

Thanks, Zach.
The foam sands easily, rapid removal with 40 grit, good enough for laminating finish with 80 grit.
I was hoping I could have pre profiled the gunnels and wrapped them in carbon sleeving before I cut the slot for the sheer. Much easier to get a clean laminate that way, and the sleeving is about 1/2 of the cost of bias woven tape. Those wiggly sheer lines won't allow that though. I might be able to use straight woven carbon tape...I did a partial fiberglass tape on the stripped Kite, and the straight weave didn't cause any problems. The curves on the gunnels are relatively mild, so maybe!

oldcoach 02-09-2017 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripperguy (Post 255899)
Hahaha...I was expecting comments about the spare vanity in the background.
That chair was one from my departed FIL's room...can't seem to part with it.

Not those chairs. The ones with the cupholders already built in...........:)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...pture.JPG?dl=0


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