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  • #16
    That seems kind of odd (unless the tracks from Tupper to Saranac are that much worse than the rest) since the Saranac-Placid section is already in use.
    Also - if they were going to run all the way from Utica up, it would seem that Lake Placid (and even Saranac) would be as much, or more, popular destinations than Tupper Lake?
    Or one could see all three being combined into a longer trip (ie. travel Utica to LP, then back in pieces stopping at the other towns for a day or two to access their attractions).

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Uncle Alvah View Post
      First, let me say that I am not looking to cause any arguing here, I'm just asking for information!
      It's difficult to keep current with events in the Adirondacks from way down here, and, now that I'm on this forum, I'm soliciting for a "nutshell" synopsis of what is going on with the Adirondack Railroad as regards extending regular service north beyond Big Moose station. Apparently there are folks all in favor of this, and another group who want the rails removed to facilitate hiking and biking along that corridor.

      Is that correct, or anything near correct?
      Are we discussing the Adirondack SCENIC Railroad, that runs from SLK to LP? Are they one in the same?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jackson View Post
        Are we discussing the Adirondack SCENIC Railroad, that runs from SLK to LP? Are they one in the same?
        Yes, that's just a part of it. They also run trains out around Old Forge, and then there is a large section of track in between that is barely useable (they do take the trains over it 2x/year to get to/from the Saranac Lake/LP section, but without passengers and very slowly), which is what they are looking at restoring vs. making trails from.

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        • #19
          The tracks between Big Moose and Saranac Lake are in deplorable condition and it would take a lot of money to bring them up to a standard good enough to support revenue traffic. The tracks between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid are in good repair and see revenue service in season. The reason to tear up the tracks has been articulated by the town leadership, especially in North Elba, as economic: the right-of-way is owned by the public, but has fallen far short of providing any revenue to the towns through which it passes. The argument has been crafted in such a way that there has been a pie-in-the-sky belief developed in the money which will be generated by hordes of cyclists, hikers, and snowmobilers who will use the recreational trail created by the converted road bed. Hikers and bikers, of course, are not noted to be big spenders and basing revenue projections on people in this category is tenuous. The fact remains, however, that the train ridership between Placid and Saranac Lake does not significantly benefit the towns, in part because there is little “dwell time” in the communities for the train riders. The proposal offered is a clear political gesture: pacify the “bookend towns” of Placid and Saranac Lake by encouraging the removal of the rails all of the way to Tupper, ensuring that service will permanently end and that construction of a multi-use trail can be facilitated.
          Retaining the Utica to Big Moose portion, on the other hand, has a demonstrated benefit to Old Forge, and fixing the stretch to Tupper has a high potential for economic viability to the towns, I believe. Savvy marketing by Adirondack Scenic could encourage an overnight trip all of the way to Tupper, with bus service from the Depot to the Wild Center. Motel “packages” could be developed, all to the benefit of the town. Currently, the lake cruises on Fourth Lake and on Raquette Lake could be integrated into a Utica-based excursion. The biggest obstacle is ridership: few people do repeat trips, and short hops are best for young families. Longer trips are better-suited for the retirees who ply the Thruway into the Adirondacks from Ohio, Indiana, and other mid-distance locations. They are also the group which thrives on tourist railroads. Similar possibilities also exist for Saranac Lake and Lake Placid, but can never happen if the rails are torn up north of Tupper.
          But, to please the short-sighted, the bicyclists and hikers who buy Power Bars will be encouraged to pump countless dollars into convenience stores between Tupper and Placid. For me, I would prefer to take my Hornbeck on the train and launch on the Bog River, or Clear Pond, or Lake Lila, or Beaver River… …
          "Days in the woods are days beyond time"--Paul Jamieson

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          • #20
            Originally posted by nutmeg creeker View Post
            The argument has been crafted in such a way that there has been a pie-in-the-sky belief developed in the money which will be generated by hordes of cyclists, hikers, and snowmobilers who will use the recreational trail created by the converted road bed. Hikers and bikers, of course, are not noted to be big spenders and basing revenue projections on people in this category is tenuous. ... But, to please the short-sighted, the bicyclists and hikers who buy Power Bars will be encouraged to pump countless dollars into convenience stores between Tupper and Placid. For me, I would prefer to take my Hornbeck on the train and launch on the Bog River, or Clear Pond, or Lake Lila, or Beaver River…
            I agree that the user projections for the rail trail seem pretty optimistic. But the rail trail demographic is quite different from the average backpacker. A hiker may well drive straight to and from the trailhead with maybe a stop at a restaurant (or Stewarts) on the way home. I've certainly done a trip like that many times. On the other hand, a rail trail user is more likely to be a family who will be staying at a hotel in town, eating at restaurants, stopping for ice cream... In short, money-spending tourists.

            Hard core cyclists (the type who buy energy bars) aren't all that interested in a rail trail because they're either mountain bikers who want singletrack, or road cyclists who want, well, roads.

            I am a bit confused by why you're denigrating cyclists as non-spenders though. Have you spent any time in Placid in the summer and seen the number of cyclists in the area, especially out along the Ironman course and on River Rd? I'd bet all my money they're not all hiking in to state land at the end of their ride for free camping, or cooking pasta they brought from home. These are people riding bikes costing a couple thousand dollars, they're usually not accused of being cheap. The Lake Placid Pub sells a cycling jersey and charges $85 for it!

            The railroad sounds interesting, especially since I live in the Utica area, but the proposals were calling for refurbishing the rails to support trains up to a maximum of 30mph. That means a rail trip would realistically take 6 hours each way with stops. I can drive there in 3!

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            • #21
              Another government infrastructure project. Sadly, whichever way this goes one thing is guaranteed: A ton of our tax money will be spent, and the projections of great benefits will not be realized. I do not have a dog in the fight regarding rail vs. trail. The only thing my dog is fighting for is that we spend as little of my money as possible, because it's guaranteed to be wasted.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by colden46 View Post

                I am a bit confused by why you're denigrating cyclists as non-spenders though. Have you spent any time in Placid in the summer and seen the number of cyclists in the area, especially out along the Ironman course and on River Rd? I'd bet all my money they're not all hiking in to state land at the end of their ride for free camping, or cooking pasta they brought from home. These are people riding bikes costing a couple thousand dollars, they're usually not accused of being cheap. The Lake Placid Pub sells a cycling jersey and charges $85 for it!
                I certainly respect your comments and acknowledge the perception that I have denigrated cyclists. I am, after all, one of those who has a 2K+ bike--- powered, I regret to say, by a 7 decade old body.
                "Days in the woods are days beyond time"--Paul Jamieson

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by colden46 View Post
                  The Lake Placid Pub sells a cycling jersey and charges $85 for it!
                  And a fine jersey it is!

                  fro.jpg
                  Attached Files
                  “Death is the only wise advisor that we have. Whenever you feel, as you always do, that everything is going wrong and you're about to be annihilated, turn to your death and ask if that is so. Your death will tell you, 'I haven't touched you yet.” Carlos Castenada

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by WinterWarlock View Post
                    And a fine jersey it is!
                    Indeed. Representing Ubu at the top of the Col d'Aubisque!
                    Attached Files

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by colden46 View Post
                      Indeed. Representing Ubu at the top of the Col d'Aubisque!
                      OK that's sweet!
                      “Death is the only wise advisor that we have. Whenever you feel, as you always do, that everything is going wrong and you're about to be annihilated, turn to your death and ask if that is so. Your death will tell you, 'I haven't touched you yet.” Carlos Castenada

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by WinterWarlock View Post
                        OK that's sweet!
                        Definitely an awesome experience! Anyway, so railroads...

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by colden46 View Post
                          That's been my experience as well, even south of Horseshoe. This photo is from just south of Hitchins Pond. The light colored ties with metal on the ends look like relatively recent replacements, and the rest are basically doing nothing. It would cost a fortune just to get the track up to the condition where it could handle trains going 30mph, and then who wants to spend 6 hours going from Utica to Lake Placid except as a one-time novelty trip just to see it?

                          The tie replacement is fine, it will hold your trains on the track as long as the ballast is solid enough.

                          here's some really bad track, trying to locate a better picture.



                          The concensus of the planning now seemed to suddenly switch to trail/rail.
                          If they keep the rails and improve the Tupper line the railroad gains a continuous unsplit line all the way to Lake Placid, this would be excellent.
                          Build a trail next to it everybody is happy. I am not familiar with the exact route of the railroad and its land location if there are any squeeze plays in routing for both.
                          There are -plenty- of reasons to keep the rail line, and I am not talking about the land reversion I am talking about practicalities.
                          Last edited by dinwitty; 10-28-2016, 10:41 AM.

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                          • #28
                            The number of healthy ties and the distance from each other simply dictate the max speed the train can go. This is a figure under their operation rules. They are added to when money becomes available using volunteers. Money is the issue whether a trail or train. The rail to trail people are, at least in one interview, banking on the recycling the metal etc. to pay to build the trail. However, at least to my knowledge, the rails belong to the railroad company... they are responsible for them- not sure they would be willing to give them away.

                            In another interview- i heard the rails to trails guy describe the track as a green featureless boring hallway- no reason to ride a train with no view... this is true- tracks follow the least interesting paths- this isn't the Canadian rail that has the remote Rockies to view. etc. What he failed to realize is that on a train- you have the destination to reach, and conversation and entertainment possible on board, eating and drinking.... he never did explain is why anybody will want to hike or bike the very same green featureless boring hallway that a has even less outlook from ground level or protection from the swarms of insects we all know and love.. and at (maybe) 20 minutes per mile- slow torture with the only possible entertainment of hearing your feet trudge along. Be like hiking the thruway.

                            Transporting hikers to other trails or boaters to various overpasses, or bikers to remote trails so they do a return trip along routes that have something to see... would seem to me to be a legitimate draw. Or those rail bikes a novelty.. As well as a trainload of riders who arrive in Lake Placid with the sole intent of eating and bopping around the shops or staying over. Hikers come, get sweaty and bitten and get in their cars and go home, maybe grabbing some gas and a sandwich. I know that's what I do 99% of the time.

                            Finally once its gone its gone forever- we have a train/track shortage in that area- with trails in abundance, no trail shortage.

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                            • #29
                              ...For me, I would prefer to take my Hornbeck on the train and launch on the Bog River, or Clear Pond, or Lake Lila, or Beaver River… ]

                              Is it actually possible to have the train drop you and your gear along the way? I'd think that would be an excellent draw for some paddlers. Almost as fun as attaching a canoe t0 the float of a plane.

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                              • #30
                                Judge rules in favor of the railroad

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                                Once a year, go some where you've never been before.

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