GPS and Map Co-ordinates

[redhawk]

I'm curious as to what people are using for map and gps co-ordinates.

The easiest and most precise for "short distances" (where the curvature of the earth does not come into play) is UTM. All USGS Topo's and Topo Software as well as the Delorme Gazaeteers and The National Geographic Maps have the UTM Grids.

Which do you use and is there any specific reason beyond the just being used to Lat/long?

[sacco]

i'd be surprised if anyone gives a reason for using lat/lon, other than "just never payed attention to it"

since you have to go about 5 miles before earth curvature errors show up in the INCHES, you'd probably have to walk for MONTHS before you'd accumulate any noticable errors.

[ken999]

...after last weeks discussion I am switching to UTM...thanks Redhawk...

[protocoldroid]

this only begs another question: which datum are you using?

NAD27, lol.

[Johnnycakes]

I use Degrees, Minutes, Thousandths of Minutes because the ADK High Peaks trail map I have only shows Degrees and Minutes. I'm too cheap to print my own maps using the software I have, plus I like having one big map that shows the whole High Peaks region.

I mark my waypoints using the software, transfer the waypoints (using the software) to my GPS, and then label the waypoints on my ADK High Peaks trail map. I never erase the waypoints from either my map or my GPS (I have yet to exceed the memory capacity). This works well for me.

John

[SherpaKroto]

What Johnnycakes said - almost to the letter. I do print some maps, particularly when bushwhacking.

[lumberzac]

I just started printing my maps out using the UTM. So far I haven't really used the coordinate system to navigate yet. As for my GPS, I don't remember because I haven't used it in over a year.

[Jeff]

I use Lat and Long for two different reasons:

1)No GPS
2)Trained by the US Army how to read maps

[sacco]

Originally Posted by Jeff

I use Lat and Long for two different reasons:

2)Trained by the US Army how to read maps

how long ago, reserves or active?

active duty's been using grid coords. for a quite awhile, reserve/NG maybe a little less.


ok you LAT/ LON guys. here's a couple quick questions.

1] if you're at 43.0145 LAT, and 75.0336 LON , and you want to go 1 mile east, what's your destination LAT/LON ?

2] You're at 43.7415 LAT, 75.8975 LON. i call ya on the radio and say i'm at 43.7002 LAT, 75.8975 LON. i need help, you've gotta come to me. how far do you have to go?




ANSWERS: who knows. i didn't feel like taking 15 minutes to do the complicated advanced 3D spherical trigonometry. i also did not feel like getting my map out (assuming i had a map with those LAT/LONs), plotting both the points and scaling the distances. i could have used my computer but that'd be cheating.




now if those same questions were in UTM coords. anyone who's passed 2nd grade could give the answers straight off the top of their heads in 10 seconds flat. no map, no gps, no computer needed.

it takes 5 minutes to learn how to use UTM coords.

[redhawk]

Originally Posted by sacco

how long ago, reserves or active?

active duty's been using grid coords. for a quite awhile, reserve/NG maybe a little less.


ok you LAT/ LON guys. here's a couple quick questions.

1] if you're at 43.0145 LAT, and 75.0336 LON , and you want to go 1 mile east, what's your destination LAT/LON ?

2] You're at 43.7415 LAT, 75.8975 LON. i call ya on the radio and say i'm at 43.7002 LAT, 75.8975 LON. i need help, you've gotta come to me. how far do you have to go?




ANSWERS: who knows. i didn't feel like taking 15 minutes to do the complicated advanced 3D spherical trigonometry. i also did not feel like getting my map out (assuming i had a map with those LAT/LONs), plotting both the points and scaling the distances. i could have used my computer but that'd be cheating.




now if those same questions were in UTM coords. anyone who's passed 2nd grade could give the answers straight off the top of their heads in 10 seconds flat. no map, no gps, no computer needed.

it takes 5 minutes to learn how to use UTM coords.

So there!

[ken999]

Sacco...share your feelings with the group...

I've printed out some maps from Terrain Navigator with the UTM borders on them, and given them to some friends who are learning GPS...I could all but see the confusion leave them when I explained the "new" system to them.

Here's a link that some might find helpful...

http://www.kifaru.net/navigate1.htm

[redhawk]

Originally Posted by Jeff

I use Lat and Long for two different reasons:

1)No GPS
2)Trained by the US Army how to read maps

Thats odd.

I was taught UTM in the service in the 60's. We also used kilometers (Klicks) instead of miles.

Far as having a UPS. Today i wouldn't leave home without one, especially in places like the Adirondacks where the density and the canopy make being able to triangulate position by using landmarks is next to impossible.

I still wnat my map and compass, but the compass is primarily a secondary and back up instrument.

All USGS Topos have the UTM Grids as well as the majority of other maps. I even prefer the 1/25000 (metric) topos over the 1/24000 scale.

Funny, I prefer distance in meters but still prefer feet for height.

[sacco]

nice link ken.

before someone B**ches at me - when i said 5 minutes to learn, i meant by having someone teach you in person.

i think ken's link is great, but learning UTM on your own, just by reading about it on that site will prolly take a little longer -that's all.

also, if i did come on a little strong i appologize. i should put a little qualifying statement in.

let's pretend i said this at the end of my previous post:

i'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, i'm just trying to show that UTM does have definite, concrete advantages over LAT/LON- but to each his own.

[sacco]

Originally Posted by redhawk

Far as having a UPS. Today i wouldn't leave home without one, especially in places like the Adirondacks where the density and the canopy make being able to triangulate position by using landmarks is next to impossible.

I still wnat my map and compass, but the compass is primarily a secondary and back up instrument.

my order of preference is

1] compass - small, lite no reason not to take it. anyone armed with a compass and general knowledge of an area should be able to get out of anywhere in the ADKs.

2] map - usually carry one, depending on familiarity with area and situation.

3] GPS - sometimes carry one, depends on situation. often i feel it's not worth the extra pound.

[ken999]

Originally Posted by sacco

nice link ken.

before someone B**ches at me - when i said 5 minutes to learn, i meant by having someone teach you in person.

i think ken's link is great, but learning UTM on your own, just by reading about it on that site will prolly take a little longer -that's all.

also, if i did come on a little strong i appologize. i should put a little qualifying statement in.

let's pretend i said this at the end of my previous post:

i'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, i'm just trying to show that UTM does have definite, concrete advantages over LAT/LON- but to each his own.

no apologies...we are just having some fun with you.

Having a little background in surveying help me be lazy about what system I was using...It didn't matter to me...trying to 'splain it to other people was another thing. The UTM's lead to less confusion and stupid looks (...what is this guy talking about??? ) from others...especially with the border printed on the maps (see prev. link).

I'm with ya on this one Sacco! :headbang:

[Wldrns]

If you ever find yourself on a wildlands search for a lost person, you'll know the DEC runs the navigation mission with UTM. If you expect to participate as a competent seasoned SAR incident team member rather than just a tag-along, you had better know and understand UTM (as well as GPS) without further instruction.

On the other hand, when I"m navigating on other than a mission or job where I would need to use GPS as a tool, maps and compass alone work just fine - I don't bother to bring a GPS on recreational backcountry hikes. In general I don't count on visually locating distant landmarks to triangulate through thick cover for navigation with map and compass. That works best on peaks with views or on lake shores; most of the time you are elsewhere. Observing lay of the land and paying strict attention to terrain nav clues in the nearby sourroundings are sufficient to get through most anywhere in the Northeast wilderness with map and compass alone. People have been successfully doing that a very long time. However it does take some practice and a keen understanding what you are doing when in the deep woods way off trail.

[JJW]

I use Degrees, Minutes, and Thousandths of Minutes.

Some reasons:
Geocache's are listed that way
My paper maps in degrees
I have never joined an emergency rescue team

Regards,
John

[SLJames]

Originally Posted by protocoldroid

this only begs another question: which datum are you using?

NAD27, lol.

I'm using the datum corresponding to the map I am using with the GPS.

I use UTM exclusively, it is the best suited grid for the "scale" of adventures I go on.

[Volte]

Originally Posted by redhawk

Thats odd.

Funny, I prefer distance in meters but still prefer feet for height.

Me too, and I have spent months in areas where all they know is meters for height.

[yellowcanoe]

the marine charts I have for Atlantic waters dont use UTM. Hence I have to use lat/long

Canadian topos are UTM.. priceless.

Thats why it pays to have a way to switch back and forth.

What I dont get in the White Mts maps...and there are a SLEW of them is altitude is in meters and distance in feet...!