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Old 02-24-2022, 08:43 AM   #1
billconner
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Adirondack Park regulation of

Multiple sides to every story but I thought this was interesting:

https://fee.org/articles/attack-in-the-adirondacks/
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Old 03-01-2022, 02:16 PM   #2
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Thanks Bill - unfortunately I don't live up in the Park and looks like it has been tough on those that own homes and property. Has much changed since this was written? But as you stated there are multiple sides to every story.
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Old 03-02-2022, 08:04 AM   #3
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Thanks Bill - unfortunately I don't live up in the Park and looks like it has been tough on those that own homes and property. Has much changed since this was written? But as you stated there are multiple sides to every story.
Unfortunately, not much has changed. Some people get hassles by wealthy people buying up land with the APA and others just seem to go away. One example is a party built a retaining wall aprox 15 feet high with cement units and put in dockage he rents out with no permit whatso ever. The guy next to him wanted to dump a tandem load of sand on the sandy beach on his property and asked for a permit and was denied.
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Old 05-20-2022, 03:28 AM   #4
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The Adirondack "Park" residents should build a "war chest" of funds to secede from the state and create their own state. It is possible. Then they could revise laws to protect land owners and still protect the wilderness areas. Common sense laws would replace ridiculous laws which seek to have no permanent residences. A militia could be hired to enforce the secession and patrol the roads in the "park". Sensible zoning laws would permit some development which would create funds to protect the natural resources. Think it can't happen? A multi-billionaire could make it happen and the world has many of them.
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Old 05-20-2022, 05:21 PM   #5
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I hate to say this, but even the mention of this is bordering on treason.

Second, it would never happen. The Adirondacks don't have resources. Any resistance could be starved out within a year.

The small amount of timber resources that the Adirondacks has is easily trumped by those of the western US, southern US, Canada, Finland, just to name a few.


I really wish people would get over the idea that the Adirondacks have some sort of crazy economy that is being held hostage by the state. It just isn't true. It did, back in the mid-1800s when the world was less globalized and NYC was heavily dependent on them, and when iron ore was being extracted and charcoal was being used for smelting, but these days, again, even if we ravaged it, it would barely make a dent in the global market.

The Adirondacks number one resource is water - it's the water tower of the state. Could some radicals choke that out and try to use it to gain position over the rest of the state? Maybe, but it would either completely destroy the environment in the process, and thus destroy the state they were trying to free, or it would be prohibitively expensive to try to control.

The second resource is timber - but again, comparatively speaking from what I see on the timber market, it's not high value lumber. The Adirondacks have a short growing season, most of the forests are not generating veneer quality of the most valuable species e.g. hard maple and black cherry, and almost no oak. Red spruce grows far too slow to actually be economically viable - the only reason it was in the olden days was it was readily available and other softwood resources had not been exploited. White pine, which I tended to think was of value here is actually very, very low, and I believe most of the best value timber for EWP comes from down south. As far as species, the Adirondacks are largely dominated by beech, of which there is much less value and red spruce, most of which is on the smaller side because it is such a slow growing tree as it is, and much of the large stands were harvested less than 100 years ago. References I've read say it takes as much as 200 years for it to be of any real timber value.

One real resource that the Adirondacks has that is somewhat sustainable is maple syrup, but because of our trade laws and the productivity of Quebec, it's almost impossible for them to compete. We could do more as a state to make that more even and utilize our own sugar suppliers, but that's another topic.

The Adirondacks have almost zero value for agriculture on any scale. Farms that did exist in the region historically were mainly found in the drier, and milder east, and mostly in the SE or along the Champlain valley where the soils were best and the climate a bit warmer. Most of those were quickly abandoned with the move of agriculture to the mid-west. Strictly speaking, NY only has a limited region of good, arable land and that tends to be the strip right along the middle south of the Lake Ontario, and in some cases extended down into the finger lakes - mainly where it is lower elevation. The rest of the state tends to be very difficult to farm.

Our best idea as a nation was to create national parks, and then later on, national wilderness. Our state followed suit but decided it would manage itself, more locally, rather than be under federal control. There's some advantages to that, but it still was the right idea.

So I'm not sure what you think you might gain by seceding from NY? except rotting in a federal prison for treason? A beautiful place that was only made that way by the very laws and regulations you are opposing? A region with very little resource or arable land, and almost no cities or universities? A tourist economy you could exploit? But who's going to go to your fancy hotels when you block out NYC and Montreal?

This makes about as much sense as the insurrection at the end of the last election. Violence for the sake of violence. Ruining a great piece of conservation for the sake of someone's "freedom".

BTW there have been two shooters in the region where I live in the past few weeks. It's idiocy like that this that drives it. If you don't like the system, get an education and change it in a peaceful and civilized way. For now, enjoy the fruits of those who realized the follies of our forefathers and tried to rectify.

Peace!

Last edited by montcalm; 05-20-2022 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 05-20-2022, 07:24 PM   #6
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Montcalm, generally good thoughts, but you are running wild a bit.

No one ever said the Adirondacks had a "great economy." It's always been a weak economy here; that's why it was easy for the state to further crush it.

Many people outside the Adirondacks have advocated for decades that "upstate" (generally meaning everything north of Westchester, or perhaps even including Westchester) should separate from NYC. I have not analyzed the rights or wrongs of this, but it's not a new discussion.

This is a long standing historical discussion. It has nothing to do with the Adirondacks. And it is by no means "treason" of any sort. There are several movements around the country where parts of a state are considering separating from the rest of the state. "Treason" is a federal crime, typically involving aiding and abetting enemies of the United States. Any discussion of "treason" is totally irrelevant here.

And the suggestion that expressing an opinion is the "cause of violence" and that therefore the opinion should be censored is WAY out of line, and leads directly to Stalinism. I'm sure you don't really want to go there. Think again.
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Old 05-20-2022, 07:36 PM   #7
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I think perhaps read the post directly preceding I was responding to. It directly talks about raising funds and supporting a militia to secede from NY? It's not clear. Either way it would be seen as some form of treason. Likely the federal government would see it that way or the NYS government could frame it that way.

As far as changing political boundaries peacefully using a vote, I have seen such things, and it could be done. I really don't know all the legalities of it, but I'm sure it wouldn't be easy. I know there is a movement from a number of upstate NYers to try to "secede" from NYC. I don't think they'd like the results if it ever were to happen, tbh. The grass is always greener...

And I'm 100% directly equating that call to militarize to gain what one wants as what it is. There's no "Stalinism". No matter what the cause, use of force to support a particular political stance or ideology is a direct admission that you aren't smart enough to come to some kind of reasonable solution, and you already lost that battle.

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Old 05-21-2022, 05:07 PM   #8
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Mr. Montcalm,
There is a closet movement to secede from NY. When the Colonists broke away from England there must have been shouts of "treason" then too. When the state of NY seizes land from private citizens through "eminent domain" is that called "treason"? Of course not. It's called "Stalinism". When people with big money take over another company is that called "treason"? Of course not. However in both instances it takes away ownership from those who may have invested a lot to get it. Of course new owners are going to hire muscle to protect their investment. Some call it law enforcement. I don't know where you learned your account of history but please read again TCD's definition ""Treason" is a federal crime, typically involving aiding and abetting enemies of the United States. Any discussion of "treason" is totally irrelevant here."

The last governor whose last name is Cuomo, ran this state like Castro and got evicted. His "aura" of dictatorship still has the impetus of his cronies. The Adirondacks doesn't need natural resources to effect a secession, just money. Billionaires have lots of money.
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Old 05-21-2022, 06:05 PM   #9
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This the most poorly thought-out and downright dangerous talk I’ve ever read. One cannot simply secede from New York State legally and steal land owned by the people of New York. The irony of that and “Stalinism” cannot be understated.

I suggest you keep your gun your holster and seek some professional help. Typically if one succeeds at secession it’s independence, if they lose, it’s treason. I can’t even fathom the loss of life for such a ridiculous act but one might want to look at past wars in Balkans to see how it might go in todays age on a state scale. On a national scale we’ve had one civil war in the past and loss of life and waste of resources was immense in mid-19th century terms. In terms of modern age and guerrilla and terrorist warfare one could only imagine - not to mention any instability within our own borders would be prime for an eastern influence to take advantage.

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Old 05-21-2022, 08:58 PM   #10
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"This the most poorly thought-out and downright dangerous talk I’ve ever read. One cannot simply secede from New York State legally and steal land owned by the people of New York. The irony of that and “Stalinism” cannot be understated."

I notice you post a lot on this site. Perhaps you are retired and have lots of time to enjoy. Good for you. However, this is a discussion which until now has been civil and respectful. "I suggest you keep your gun your holster and seek some professional help." This is NOT respectful. I agree with TCD, you are usually quite reasonable and good natured, but you also may be getting a little "wild" to remain respectful. I am a Veteran if Foreign Wars and have a strong allegiance to my country and state. But when I see people being taken advantage of I seek remedies. At this time I have no intention of seceding but if I did would not regard it as a "ridiculous act". My plan would NOT involve taking any land from any private owner. Everyone would continue just as it is now, with the exception of more sensible laws to PROTECT land owners from unreasonable "eminent domain" tactics, and to protect our wilderness areas but also make areas available for people to enjoy responsibly, and adopt better ways of accommodating our citizens without being so unfair. I suggest you relax and realize that we are very likely on the "same side."
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Old 05-22-2022, 07:09 AM   #11
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Before rushing off and forming a new state I would have a look at the finances.

https://www.syracuse.com/politics/20...r-upstate.html

https://rockinst.org/blog/downstate-...e-gets-matter/

So upstate people should not invoke the word communism in any succession discussion because every year downstate taxes are gathered up, taken away and sent upstate for the good of state.

Anybody north of Westchester has no business whining about communism or socialism because they benefit from it every day.

Have you see the current crop of billionaires? They are a bunch of nut jobs that would quickly recreate upstate to suit themselves. That's what they do they are not pleasant people. That's why they have billions of dollars. They become billionaires by doing unpleasant things.

What you want to do is to change the laws in the Adirondacks to give more control to land owners. Focus on that. Create an organization... call it Adirondack Land Owners Association or some such thing. Fundraise and get some lawyers and publicity and have at it. I have more ideas about this but I have to build a deck today and have to get going. More later.
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Old 05-22-2022, 03:59 PM   #12
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...What you want to do is to change the laws in the Adirondacks to give more control to land owners. Focus on that. Create an organization... call it Adirondack Land Owners Association or some such thing...
A large number of such organizations already exist. See list here:

https://prfamerica.org/stats/Adir-Orgs-TOC.html

Most of these organizations are small, and have been very effectively marginalized by the powers that be in Albany. The only one with any "clout", if you can call it that, is the Adirondack Park Local Government Review Board:

https://adkreviewboard.com/

The only reason they have not been completely marginalized is that their pesky existence was written into the APA act in an attempt to appear "balanced."
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Old 05-23-2022, 09:59 AM   #13
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Listen, I don't know you, you don't know me, and none of it needs to be personal. It was never meant that way. I see some red flags and I don't want you to end up like this guy, or worse:




WTBS, comparing our current situations to the American Revolution is quite absurd - and thinking the Founding Father's of this country were perfect, or had some perfect system, is absurd. It's largely borrowed and perhaps the best thing about it is it can be corrected, and there is some measure of checks and balances. Unfortunately, in a democracy, even a perfectly functioning one, up to 49% of the voters could be unsatisfied - often it's not perfect and we swing between 40-60%. So even so, some people are not going to be 100% satisfied about some things. It's built in.

At any rate, there is no need for secession (i.e. division) and there is no need for militia (i.e. provocation for violence). Gandhi proved that one can gain independence from a tyrannical empire without either. We don't have a tyrannical empire in any way similar to the way the British Empire was in either of those past scenarios.

We have a democracy, and one that is purposely set up so some radical group of whackos can't just swing the laws wildly to their whim and create instability. So that means if you belong to a small, obscure group, you can't expect it to have a lot of clout on larger scales (again refer to my other ramblings on the housing thread about changes within your local government). As far as changes within Albany, that's a long road and one I think would be best done from within. But I'm not a radical and I don't think it needs major change.


As far as TCD's stance - I have to be critical because sometimes you simply can't have your cake and eat it too. You could have retired to the Finger Lakes, or the Poconos where we have much more private land, much more development, but the obvious lacking in public lands and recreational opportunities. Not to mention lack of real wild character. And again, they both have terrible economies. I'd say if anything the Adirondacks have a distinct advantage in terms of small businesses because most chains and big box stores have been blocked out. The few exceptions I can think of are the hotels in Lake Placid (I assume allowed to fulfill Olympic needs in the 80s) and gas station chains i.e. Stewarts. There was a McDonalds in Old Forge at one time but even that went away. Perhaps the internet ala Amazon has made all that obsolete other than dining though.

The Adirondacks has a tourist economy. It has a fair bit of resource management still - but even given that, not enough to really do much of anything. Towns that are successful have subsidized their own communities with funding from seasonal residents.

And unfortunately, you sometimes can get some division between communities which causes a cascade in wealth i.e. Lake Placid->Saranac Lake->Tupper Lake.

And here's just an anecdote to that: My sister who currently resides in Long Island visited Saranac Lake for the first time over the pandemic. Her (insensitive) comment: "Everything was closed and it looked kind of poor." Ooof.

Honestly I've always thought of SL as the most functional town/city in the Adirondacks. The most real.

But anyway, I'm sure a lot of people have that same thought as my comment above. And probably worse about other communities. Some of them may be too small to survive. Others may need more assistance on the county or state level. But I think what you end up with is like everywhere else - a working class or poor ghetto, and a separate, fake fa?ade you sell to the tourists. Taking away forest preserve or ramping up development will not change this - it will only make things worse - the areas that are already crazy and desirable will become more so and the others more depressed, and stripped of their natural beauty.

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Old 05-23-2022, 10:26 AM   #14
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Also one other very important point I forgot to mention:

Show me one struggling town within the blue line(s) and I'll show you one in southern NY. The problems exist independent of the APA.
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Old 05-25-2022, 10:04 AM   #15
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Mr. Montcalm,
There is a closet movement to secede from NY. When the Colonists broke away from England there must have been shouts of "treason" then too. When the state of NY seizes land from private citizens through "eminent domain" is that called "treason"? Of course not. It's called "Stalinism". When people with big money take over another company is that called "treason"? Of course not. However in both instances it takes away ownership from those who may have invested a lot to get it. Of course new owners are going to hire muscle to protect their investment. Some call it law enforcement. I don't know where you learned your account of history but please read again TCD's definition ""Treason" is a federal crime, typically involving aiding and abetting enemies of the United States. Any discussion of "treason" is totally irrelevant here."

The last governor whose last name is Cuomo, ran this state like Castro and got evicted. His "aura" of dictatorship still has the impetus of his cronies. The Adirondacks doesn't need natural resources to effect a secession, just money. Billionaires have lots of money.
Please post these examples of "land seizures/eminent domain".
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Old 05-25-2022, 10:33 AM   #16
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Plenty of examples here:

https://ij.org/pillar/eminent-domain/

(Admittedly, this source is one-sided, as it's from a law firm that represents private property owners. But that does not make the examples "fake.")
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Old 05-25-2022, 12:56 PM   #17
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I looked at that site for like a minute (which was probably too much) and I couldn't find any pertinent information.

The one thing that was glaringly obvious to me is that emanant domain is used (and maybe abused) in other states and in other parts of NY. I'm failing to see how this applies to the APA.



I'll be here, waiting... mainly waiting for the counterargument for how the problems exist all over rural NY, independent of the APA.
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Old 05-25-2022, 01:47 PM   #18
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I'll be here, waiting... mainly waiting for the counterargument for how the problems exist all over rural NY, independent of the APA.
I won't argue with you at all on that! All over rural New York, poverty and joblessness has replaced what was a thriving economy 40 years ago.

(I remember traveling on business in the Southern Tier and central-western NY in the 80s. Thriving manufacturing businesses, healthy communities. Even by the late 2000s, that had changed. I traveled through the area on a family visit in around 2008, and long stretches were "ghost towns" of boarded up structures.)

New York State's government is destructive to private interests and business equally, all over the whole state. The only variations are what tools are used: Taxes; Regulations; Licenses; the "Climate Leadership" act; the APA...the list of tools is endless. The private interests that do well are the wealthy elite in NYC, and the corruptly connected (Bill Hochul for example).

But because this is the Adirondack Forum, we talk mostly about what is going on in this particular area. Other parts of the state have their own challenges to face.
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Old 05-25-2022, 01:58 PM   #19
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I’m 41 so this is easy for me.

What happened on a large scale 40 years ago that ruined every economy? (Hint - is isn’t anything mentioned previously).
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Old 05-25-2022, 11:26 PM   #20
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I looked at that site for like a minute (which was probably too much) and I couldn't find any pertinent information.

The one thing that was glaringly obvious to me is that emanant domain is used (and maybe abused) in other states and in other parts of NY. I'm failing to see how this applies to the APA.



I'll be here, waiting... mainly waiting for the counterargument for how the problems exist all over rural NY, independent of the APA.

If you insist on discussing it you might want to learn how to spell it.

"eminent domain"

https://ag.ny.gov/real-property/rece...d-acquisitions
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