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Old 04-02-2017, 09:09 PM   #61
stripperguy
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Zach,
Funny you should be asking about the gunnels...
I just today wetted out one gunnel, it seemed to go much easier than when I did the red Kite. Honestly, I was sort of avoiding it, I had time in the evenings this past week.
I had wrapped the gunnel with 4" wide bias woven carbon fiber tape from Soller, I think it's the 13.5 oz stuff. Fairly thick, but very compliant. I used a total of 12 oz of resin, in two batches. Almost all of the wet out was with a 3" roller, except for the very ends, where space is at a premium. I wrapped the carbon as far around the second side as possible. Tomorrow, I'll trim the stray fibers and wrap the other gunnel.
Oh, and I weighed the hull just before I added the carbon, so it's shell plus foam gunnels, 23.5 lbs and counting.

As far as using the red Kite if I must, that's always an option. Even though our gang plans these trips (Apr 28 or so, Fish Pond) a couple months in advance, I never know until the final week a definite head count. It seems we always have a drop out or two, so I may not need to paddle solo. I'll easily have the carbon copy ready for the forum paddle meet at Rollins in May.

The carbon fiber apparently is uncomfortable in front of the camera, I can't seem to get a good photo, especially when the resin is still wet.
Here's how it looks as of tonight:






In this last photo, you can see how nicely the carbon conformed to the foam and the hull. No problems to get it to tuck in tightly.

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Old 04-03-2017, 02:04 PM   #62
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This morning, I cleaned up the first side overlap, and rolled out the carbon for the second side. Wet out mostly with a roller, same as the other side.
First side cured nicely, and is really tucked in well all along both inside and out.

Rolling out the 4" carbon tape



Smoothing/tucking the dry tape into place. I needed to wiggle the tape around to get as uniform of an overlap as possible.



Rolling on the resin was much easier once I grabbed a pair of dollar store reading glasses!!



Second side done, tonight (or tomorrow) I'll trim the stray fibers and possibly add a little more carbon at the gunnel stem overhang. And maybe a small piece where the two gunnels meet on the inside.
I've run out of carbon sleeving to make the thwarts, fortunately my S-I-L has a bunch laying around.

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Old 04-03-2017, 07:05 PM   #63
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Looking pretty cool Mike, thanks again for keeping us posted on the project!
I know that you mentioned that this is a "practice" build, and I hope you don't mind if I go ahead & request perhaps a little more video tutorial included during this, or the next build. More specifically...I'm thinking it might be helpful with some of those finer details, like the "wetting out" & "tucking" process. Just thinking out loud (so-to-speak). Keep up the great work!
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:06 PM   #64
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Looking pretty cool Mike, thanks again for keeping us posted on the project!
I know that you mentioned that this is a "practice" build, and I hope you don't mind if I go ahead & request perhaps a little more video tutorial included during this, or the next build. More specifically...I'm thinking it might be helpful with some of those finer details, like the "wetting out" & "tucking" process. Just thinking out loud (so-to-speak). Keep up the great work!
Justin,
I just finished wetting out the carbon/kevlar sleeving on the future thwarts.
I will be applying short sleeves to strengthen the thwart to gunnel joints. Other than that, I'm all done with wet outs on this build.
Unfortunately, I don't own a GoPro or such. I do have a smartphone that does videos, but I don't want to cover it in resin...my hands occasionally get pretty sticky (or the gloves do).

But, but, you're welcome to stop by to start your apprenticeship. I don't expect to live forever, so I gotta pass these skills to as many as possible!!

With that said, here is a quick look at tonight's efforts.

Future thwart, carbon/kevlar sleeve over 4 lb/cu ft Divinycell foam, dry



Future thwarts fully wetted out



Bottom of carbon fiber seat, with added foam rails for future attachment to seat pedestals



Close up of foam rail (to be glass reinforced) showing Cabosil thickened epoxy and fillets

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Old 04-04-2017, 04:31 PM   #65
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Thanks for the updates.
The carbon/kevlar sleeves add a very nice accent to the build.
Do you use an actual tractor seat for the seat mold?
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:16 PM   #66
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Thanks for the updates.
The carbon/kevlar sleeves add a very nice accent to the build.
Do you use an actual tractor seat for the seat mold?
The carbon seat was an almost gift from a fellow backyard builder in Iowa. He made a mold using a standard issue canoe seat and was practicing his technique. I sent him all of my carbon scraps and he produced the seat, nearly flawless, I might add.

I will eventually paint the hull inside and out, leaving all of the trim au natural.
Undecided on the color, but some sort of mild earth tone.

No photos tonight, but I added glass reinforcement to the seat rails and another layer of sleeving to all three thwarts.
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Old 04-07-2017, 08:56 PM   #67
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Added foam rails to the bottom of the Alan Gage carbon seat.
Added Cabosil thickened epoxy fillets on the foam/seat interfaces.
Used 6 oz glass to wrap and reinforce the foam seat rails.
Thwarts are done. Center thwart has 2 layers of carbon/kevlar sleeve over 5 lb/cu inch Divinycell.
Short thwarts have 1 layer of carbon/kevlar and 1 layer of borrowed from my S-I-L carbon over the same foam.
Epoxied and filleted in placed, but not before sliding a pair of short sleeves over the thwarts.
Wet out the short sleeves to reinforce the thwart/gunnel interface.

Still need to fabricate the seat pedestals.
I won't locate the pedestals until I test paddle the hull and find the right spot for the seat.
That might be Sunday or Monday, weather permitting.
Oh, and I weighed the hull, complete with thwarts and seat (but no seat pedestals)...27.5 lbs.

Until then, here is a photo history of all that I've described above.










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Old 04-10-2017, 08:30 PM   #68
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Today is the day! I Took the carbon copy Kite to the Mohawk River and gave it a test paddle to see where I should put the seat pedestals.
As it happens, we had a delivery this morning of a custom glass shower door. It was crated with some 2 by's and closed cell foam glued to the inside.
So I used the parts of the shipping crate to make a temporary seat pedestal. The foam sits against the hull, protecting it from the 2 by's and prevents the whole mess from sliding around.






And I was concerned that I might have put the center (almost center? central?) thwart in the wrong end. It's really hard to keep track of bow and stern, so I dragged out the red Kite for a side by side.





It was still hard to tell, so I grabbed a couple forms, and phew, I had it correct!
A while later, after MDB baked me some birthday peanut butter cookies, I loaded the carbon copy on the racks and drove 8 minutes to the Mohawk River, at Lock 7.
Fiddled around with the seat location while MDB watched to see if I was trimmed out or not.







I suppose I should be excited, but the carbon copy handles like, uhmmm, a carbon copy of the original! I guess it's doing what it should.
Satisfied that the seat placement will be OK, I brought the boat back home. Time to build up the seat pedestals and finish the portage thwart that I started last year.


Oh, and I finished the first foam/E-glass test patch. 2 full layers of 6 oz on each side of 1/8" H80 Divinycell foam. It weighs 1-1/2 times more than the carbon/E-glass test patch, but is incredibly stiff. Looking back on this thread, I see the shell gained 6 lbs when I added the foam stiffening and carbon overlay.
Almost the same, advantage still for the carbon. I plan to make a few more test panels with varying weights of glass and different number of layers.
I'll also model the various laminates in Inventor, using real engineering properties, so I can close the loop on these test panels.
I'm fairly sure that I can produce a better hull using foam and glass exclusively. We'll see...
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:31 PM   #69
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Good for you, it looks nice on the water and it looks like it's nice and level. I guess I'm just a sucker for wood, I really like the look of your strip canoes and while this one still looks good it doesn't grab me in the same way somehow. Will having the thwart that close in front of your seat be a difficulty if you want to stretch your legs out or do you not need to do that? It sounds like an interesting idea with the test panels but I don't understand much about that end of things. Thanks for posting the journal, I've enjoyed being able to follow along. Happy birthday, too.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:13 PM   #70
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Good for you, it looks nice on the water and it looks like it's nice and level. I guess I'm just a sucker for wood, I really like the look of your strip canoes and while this one still looks good it doesn't grab me in the same way somehow. Will having the thwart that close in front of your seat be a difficulty if you want to stretch your legs out or do you not need to do that? It sounds like an interesting idea with the test panels but I don't understand much about that end of things. Thanks for posting the journal, I've enjoyed being able to follow along. Happy birthday, too.
Zach
Zach,
I still like the cedar too, but losing all that weight is just too attractive for me.
Forward thwart is nearly the same location as the Red Kite, and that's plenty comfy for me. I still can and do stretch my legs, feet tuck right under that thwart. Remember, my inseam is 32 inches! Front edge of the seat, in its most forward position, is 20 inches (plus or minus a few) away from that thwart.
Thanks for the birthday wishes...
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Old 04-29-2020, 08:41 PM   #71
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Wow!! Another thread resurrection...
Quick backstory: I'm in the process of repairing a wrecked 40 ft diesel pusher motorhome, and I'm using a lot of fiberglass and polyester resin.
In the process, I've used some 1/4" thick, H80 divinycell foam. I also took the opportunity today to try a small sample lamination of single layers of 6 oz glass on each side of the foam.
Yeow, is it ever stiff!! So I wanted to review my carbon copy thread...

Anyway, I realized I've never fully completed this thread.
Final weight is 28 lbs (an abject failure, but it does float) and it is every bit as versatile and comfortable as the Red Kite pattern. I painted it with Interlux and I've been using the boat for a few years now.

Next boat will be a foam strip build, with glass inside and out and polyester resin. Should be light, strong and cheap.
Meanwhile, here's a look at the finished product.





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Old 04-30-2020, 09:08 AM   #72
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Now that sounds more appealing to me than a cedar strip. I looked up 1/4" thick, H80 divinycell foam, and it says it can be thermoformed. That also sounds interesting. I wonder if you could form it with heat, and then apply fiberglass and resin, rather than stripping it?
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Old 04-30-2020, 12:48 PM   #73
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Now that sounds more appealing to me than a cedar strip. I looked up 1/4" thick, H80 divinycell foam, and it says it can be thermoformed. That also sounds interesting. I wonder if you could form it with heat, and then apply fiberglass and resin, rather than stripping it?
Just before I became homeless, I messed around with trying to thermoform the Divinycell...it would be best if I had a heated male-female set of molds, but that's not gonna happen! I tried a heat gun, but the hot air just doesn't have enough thermal mass to warm large sections of the foam. Hot water has mucho thermal mass, but I don't have a tank big enough to fit in a 4 ft x 8 ft sheet, not to mention how many BTU's I would have to pay for to raise the water high enough to be effective.
But...I did try using some quartz heating elements, you may know them as "work lights". Yup, the radiant heat works pretty well, well enough that I was encouraged considerably. In my former career, I designed and built many ovens using quartz infrared lamps, tons of power and very fast too!

A...n...d...then we started building our new house. All experiments came to a screeching halt.

Thermoforming as large a piece ( or pieces) as possible will be the long term goal, but a great intermediate step would be a foam stripper. Hopefully, I'll get to it this year, unless you wanna go first? I'm sure I could be convinced to donate a few hours to help out.

Beyond all that, I'm pretty sure that there's no justification for spending beaucoup dollars for exotic materials like carbon, basalt, innegra. And polyester resin is about 1/3 of the cost of epoxy resin, so a foam cored fiberglass hull could be quite a bargain.
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Old 04-30-2020, 12:58 PM   #74
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It sounds like an interesting project for sure. Back when I was reading canoe building books prior to building my first strip canoe I read something about polyester resin, and I am left with the vague impression that it was what people used back in the 70s or so that was no longer in use because it was prone to delaminate, and now people used epoxy instead, but I may have mis-remembered. I'm sure you know best about what you're doing, and are much better informed than I am. Have you completed and moved into the new house now? I'll be interested to read it if you decide to do a build thread on the foam core strip canoe.
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Old 04-30-2020, 01:40 PM   #75
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Zach,
Polyester and vinyl ester resins are still used today on most production boats, mostly due to the lower cost and lower viscosity.
But it does not adhere to wood very well, and especially not to WRC.
As far as the house, we have the shell up and are doing our electrical and plumbing rough ins. Should be ready for insulation and sheetrock in a month or so. Hoping to move in before winter.
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Old 10-04-2021, 10:28 AM   #76
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Build thread reresurrection?

All the time that I've been paddling and carrying this Carbon Copy Kite, I've been using my old laminated cedar thwart to carry it.
I stabbed a couple deck screws into the too long ends, and used a strap to hold the thwart in place while carrying.
That was a slow process...slow to strap it on, it was prone to shifting, and even slow to remove.

So I decided to add a couple mounting points for threaded knobs to hold the carry thwart. That thwart is now 38 years old, and while not ideally suited for this hull, it has too many miles and too many memories for me to leave it home.

Simple enough, I used some H80 Divinycell foam for the core, epoxied it to the gunnels, wrapped it with 4" bias woven carbon fiber tape (leftover from the gunnels), drilled a couple holes, epoxied in a 1/4-20 nutsert and some 1/2" OD aluminum tube. All this took a few hours of effort, spread over a week on the calendar.

Here's a pictorial












As far as other stuff discussed upthread, MDB and I moved into the new house in February, motorhome repairs are complete, it's out for paint just now. It's great to have a workspace again, after squatting too long at our daughter's house. Hopefully, I can get back on the water more often, and spend some more time building a few more boats.
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Old 10-04-2021, 01:36 PM   #77
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Congrats on finally getting into the house! No, I still haven't built a stripper. I've been extremely tempted by the skin on frame method. Ever do one of those?

Last edited by JohnnyVirgil; 10-08-2021 at 07:51 PM..
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Old 10-08-2021, 01:32 PM   #78
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It looks like a handy improvement, and it's nice that you're still able to use the old thwart. That's great about the house, you must be very pleased to finally be in it. I'll look forward to seeing your new builds, I am sure they will be innovative and interesting as always.
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Old 10-10-2021, 12:56 PM   #79
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Thanks, Zach.
You must be getting antsy to make your move? Next year? Tupper Lake still the front runner?






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Old 10-10-2021, 10:14 PM   #80
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The interior pictures look great. It must be a wonderful feeling to finally be in and get to experience the result of everything you were working on for so long.

Antsy is indeed the word. Next year is still the plan for the move. I bought an empty house in a tax auction in Piercefield, and am planning to move there next year. I had hoped to be in Tupper, but Franklin county kept not having a tax auction and I am too cheap to want to pay what houses are mostly going for this last year and a half. It's only a few miles from Tupper, so it'll be fine Still waiting for the deed to be recorded, and in the meantime no one is allowed on the property, so all that is known is what can be seen from the road. It's been two weeks now and the suspense is considerable, but someday soon all will be revealed. It was cheap enough that I can afford to fix it up, and the outside is mostly good, it just needs one roof replaced. The interior may need to be totally gutted, but maybe not. It's been empty and had the power shut off for 6 years, and the town shut the water off after the pipes burst, I have been told.
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