Help us Save Duck Hole

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DSettahr

I've heard it said that a draft horse team would be necessary to aid in the repair of the dam. For what its worth, Paul Smith's College owns about 4 draft horses, and is only about 30 miles to the north of the Coreys Trail Head. If an actual plan to repair the dam were to be developed, it's a resource that could definitely come in handy.

Thanks for the idea.

We are indeed still working on this matter. At this time we're waiting to hear back from our primary DEC contact (who was out of the office all last week so hasn't had time to reply). There's supposed to be public discussion on the matter of not just Duck Hole dam, but ALL backcountry dams in the ADK Park. It's only after that discussion that the DEC is going to move forward with their own budget to repair the dams. We're hoping to speed up that process a bit for Duck Hole and do some private fund raising for its restoration. We just recently got not-for-profit status so now we can be taken more seriously when applying for the various grants ear marked for historical projects.

Once we get an update from the DEC we will make another announcement via the website (duckhole.backcountryheritage.com). It hasn't been updated since our last contact with the DEC in Fall ('06).

[Eagle36Jake]

Hey duckholes!!

Just kidding, (sorry if that's bad humor) I am new here, and not trying to tick anybody off, just want to throw my name into the hat for helping somehow with this ridiculous little issue. It seems like if they shut down one subway for a day, or gave just a day's toll money from one of the $10 toll bridges in NYC to the right organization, then duck hole could be preserved for at least another 75 years.

I have not thought about Duck Hole in years. I woke up this morning, (Tuesday, 7/24/07) with an image in my mind. It was the view of Duck Hole and the Island from the Lean-To. I was there in probably July of 1989 or 1990. I got on the internet this morning seeking a picture of it and found some great pictures, along with this website.

Duck hole is a place of legend to me. I have hiked and canoed all over the Adirondacks. I was active in Boy Scouts and attended summer camp in Brant Lake at Curtis S. Read Boy Scout Reservation. The High Adventure Camp, Summit Base, was kind of headed up by an older fella names Ken Smith and his wife (name has escaped me). I am not sure if Ken is even with us anymore. We all thought he was the coolest. He had been on trips/treks/expeditions all over the world. We had just been informed that our week-long hiking trek would be on the
Northville-Placid Trail. To us, my scout-buddies and I, because we just wanted to go camping, it didn't really make a difference where we were going, until Ken Smith sat us down and spoke to us about the gift we had, because of the fact that we were going to pass through Duck Hole, the Rondeau Hermitage, and the land of Santa Clara Lumber. He gave a speech a few days earlier about the CCC and their extensive work in NYS as well, so we knew that they had done some work in that area. We already knew of his adventures and experiences, and when he spoke about duck hole, his eyes teared up. He told us that we would be going to one of the places on earth that he had never been, and that we should consider ourselves (10 or so scouts and 2 adults) privileged, if not graced by God. He told us about the numerous sets of circumstances that prevented him from reaching duck hole over the years.
We took what Ken told us to heart. That place meant something to all of us even though none of us had ever been there. From the minute we got out of the van and unloaded our gear we all anticipated reaching Duck Hole.
We hiked for days before arriving there. Our guide had planned so that we would have some lag time at Duck hole. We knew that we could relax upon arriving there. I remember coming up to the clearing. I remember seeing the mirror-like waters, and the island out there in the middle. There were Loons all over the place. My God, it was so beautiful. We swam to the island, explored around the shores, and had a great time there. Duck Hole has a special place in my heart as being a place that I can say I have been and know that there are so many that don't even know it exists. It is a little piece of Heaven up there, that's for sure. I will make it back there, I am making myself that promise today. I will take my wife and two boys there someday. I need to find a way to help make sure it is there when I am ready to go back. I am going to write to DEC Commissioner Sheehan, and Senator Little for starters.
I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana right now. Helping from 1500 miles away might prove a bit challenging, but I want to help, guys. Please let me know what I can do.

[Eagle36Jake]

I was snooping around the web a little for a reply to something Kevin told me about DEC feeling that Duck Hole is a Fiscal Nuisance in another thread (worth reading), and I came across some pictures.




This is the website: http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/specialcolle...irondacks.html

I am wondering if you guys have seen these, and if they are in fact the dam at duck hole.

If they are, go with me here...
It was repaired by the CCC. Other works of the CCC are listed on the National Registry of Historic Places (example: CCC Shelter, Pokagon State Park, Indiana)
Can we get Duck Hole recognized as an Historic Place somehow?

We need to get the DEC commissioner and The Senators out there for a night of peaceful September slumber in the lean-to, where they can be awoken by the loquacious, laughter-like call of the resident loons and have a cup of warm TANG while watching the sun rise over the gorgeous horizon.

Then see if they still want to call it a NUISANCE!!!!!!

[redhawk]

Originally Posted by Eagle36Jake

I was snooping around the web a little for a reply to something Kevin told me about DEC feeling that Duck Hole is a Fiscal Nuisance in another thread (worth reading), and I came across some pictures.




This is the website: http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/specialcolle...irondacks.html

I am wondering if you guys have seen these, and if they are in fact the dam at duck hole.

If they are, go with me here...
It was repaired by the CCC. Other works of the CCC are listed on the National Registry of Historic Places (example: CCC Shelter, Pokagon State Park, Indiana)
Can we get Duck Hole recognized as an Historic Place somehow?

We need to get the DEC commissioner and The Senators out there for a night of peaceful September slumber in the lean-to, where they can be awoken by the loquacious, laughter-like call of the resident loons and have a cup of warm TANG while watching the sun rise over the gorgeous horizon.

Then see if they still want to call it a NUISANCE!!!!!!

Yep that is the Duck Hole Dam.

Yes it was repaired by the DEC.

And if I'm not mistaken, Kevin or Gary or someone has looked into that national register possibility.

Hawk

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Eagle36Jake

We need to get the DEC commissioner and The Senators out there for a night of peaceful September slumber in the lean-to, where they can be awoken by the loquacious, laughter-like call of the resident loons and have a cup of warm TANG while watching the sun rise over the gorgeous horizon.

Then see if they still want to call it a NUISANCE!!!!!!

I'm glad you're on our side .

I wanted to note a few things you raised:

1) The DEC has never used the exact terminology "fiscal nuisance". That was my summation of their general attitude surrounding this issue, and most backcountry structure issues (other dams, bridges, etc). They don't see these things as necessary. Not because they are/aren't for practical purposes, or even that their own policy does/doesn't allow for their maintence or replacement, but because they cost a lot of money to repair and/or replace. To them it's a burden to sink hundreds of thousands of dollars every 50-100 years into a particular backcountry structure.

There's obviously a detachment issue at work here - 90% of the those who decide things like arbitrary lean-to distances from waterways and whether an important historical and habitat sustaining structure receives funding have also never visited these places. To them life operates on a series of statistical equations and little more. Fortunately for the rest of us life (ALL life) is worth much more than that. I wonder how much a human's life is worth if that dam suddenly gives and 3 people fishing downstream are killed. I bet from a purely economic standpoint they would be wishing they spent $1 million, because I'm sure the ensuing law suits will set them back a lot more. Especially now that this danger to human life and their inaction to protect it has been made public.

There's a few bridges missing or in desperate need of repair in critical backcountry locations that have already (because of their condition or absense) trapped people caught in sudden rain storms, etc. Gary Dean has personally addressed this issue in his meetings with the DEC as far back as 2005 and they STILL haven't budged a single inch on what they intend to do about that problem either. As silly as this sounds, it's like they have their fingers in their ears screaming loudly "lalalala I can't hear you" expecting these problems to go away. If I had to guess, they're betting with human lives with a hope that the worse case scenerio never happens. Something about that just doesn't sit right with me.

2) We have not formerly applied for any grants (yet). We have a volunteer who writes grants looking into it, and we'll need to nudge them as it's been a couple months since they had any news for us. Thanks for the reminder.

3) There's actually 2 dams at Duck Hole - the causeway is a dam-like structure that is also in disrepair, but not nearly as bad and based on its design/function it won't be due for any major work for quite some time.

4) That photo is awesome. Nice find!

5) I performed an update of the www.saveduckhole.com website.

[Eagle36Jake]

I akcnowledge that DEC never used that verbiage, and figured as much.
Yeah, that picture is pretty cool. I was thinking that if someone dug a little harder around the Biltmore School that we might find some more good information for our cause, from the standpoint of historical significance. We have will, so there IS a way. I think that possibly angling for a grant is not a bad idea. It would seem likely that we could find a list of potential grant funds and prioritize based on likelihood, then attack them with a(n) well-written letter(s). I'm game for that.

[Eagle36Jake]

I hope I'm not trying something that's already been attempted. I was looking for something else completely unrelated, and came across a link to National Register of Historic Places. Nominations for NRHP must come from State Officer of Historic Places. Here's the criteria for applying a place for acceptance:

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/shpo/reg...evaluation.htm


*I was checking out Preservation League of NYS website
[ http://www.preservenys.org/index.htm ]
and realized that is probably one of the reasons why non-profit organization status is so important for this.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Eagle36Jake

*I was checking out Preservation League of NYS website
[ http://www.preservenys.org/index.htm ]
and realized that is probably one of the reasons why non-profit organization status is so important for this.

Ding! Tell him what he's won!

It was our grant writer who first planted the seed of getting incorporated.

[Eagle36Jake]

Someone please tell where we stand with the process of grabbing nonprofit status?

[Wildernessphoto]

Originally Posted by Eagle36Jake

Someone please tell where we stand with the process of grabbing nonprofit status?

We do have or non-profit status thanks to one of our members going way out of his way to help us... We are in a position now to take donations, and move forward legally, and financially. I might put a plug in here and let you know you can point people to http://www.backcountryheritage.com/
to help the cause.

[1ADAM12]

Originally Posted by Wildernessphoto

We do have or non-profit status thanks to one of our members going way out of his way to help us... We are in a position now to take donations, and move forward legally, and financially. I might put a plug in here and let you know you can point people to http://www.backcountryheritage.com/
to help the cause.

This is awesome thanks Gary and to all others involved.

So if the State cannot fund the Duck Hole project how much money do "WE" need to raise to put a dent in this project?

Thanks,
Adam

[Eagle36Jake]

Well done, fellas (and ladies?). Thank you for taking the bull by the horns. What has been identified as the next step in the process?

[Wildernessphoto]

Originally Posted by 1ADAM12

This is awesome thanks Gary and to all others involved.

So if the State cannot fund the Duck Hole project how much money do "WE" need to raise to put a dent in this project?

Thanks,
Adam

I'm thinking we would need a pretty good sum, but not as much as the D.E.C. estimated. A lot of the cost is the coffer dam, and getting material on site, as well as removing and re-filling the boulder cribs. We need volunteers who know how to hand hew logs, and we need someone who knows rigging to build a crane on site, much like they did to load ships hundreds of years ago. We need the DEC to give this project there blessing. We need a lot, but it is doable.
We need to solve the problems one at a time, and then take everything we've accumulated, and bring it to the table for the DEC. If we bring funds, skilled craftsman, knowledgeable people to engineer a crane, that makes the DEC's job much easier, and helps them to find it hard to say no...

[whitefish]

betty little has always supported the residents in their efforts to keep what little we have left, I am sure if anything can be done she will help..

everything changes, once there was no dam at all, once ther were no pike or bass here to eat the native fish, and oce i didn't have floodlights glaring across the lake at me, and once i thought "Arthur Itis" was a guy down in Keene...things change, entropy isn't what it used to be.

[toothlessannie]

FYI

DEC is adding bodies/regulations to their Dam Safety Section...

http://www.dec.ny.gov/environmentdec/42014.html

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by toothlessannie

FYI

DEC is adding bodies/regulations to their Dam Safety Section...

http://www.dec.ny.gov/environmentdec/42014.html

Interesting... I'm wondering if this applies only to private sector dams or only dams with a high-hazard/safety rating.

[toothlessannie]

They are taking a wide look at all dams in NYS, there is growing concern at the amount of low-level dams that are ageing silently with a lot of potential impact downstream.

[Hobbitling]

sounds like it will expand safety exemptions for small dams, and focus resources on large high risk dams. I'm assuming dams on state property will get more attention too.

Its a little scary to realize that there are currently only 3 state employees in charge of dam safety.

[chairrock]

Has a fair size beaver dam break a few falls ago, washed out a couple of bridges stranding hunter vehicles.FP did a great job rebuilding the bridges,BTW. Will the state regulate beaver dams? That one was 15 ft tall and 500 yards long....t

[Cold River Bob]

A couple of weeks ago the director of National Resources,Regional Director,Director of Fisheries, Operations Engineer , And Conservation officer Kevin Burns Flew into Duckhole to make see what shape the dam is in and to decide what to do about it,, That is all we know as of now