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  • #16
    Originally posted by JohnnyVirgil View Post
    Is that for emergencies only? Is there another number for "regular" ranger-related stuff? I googled it, but only saw the this number and 408-5850, both listed as "emergency contact."
    NYSDEC Headquarters in...

    Ray Brook: 518-897–1200

    Warrensburg: 518-623-1200

    Northville: 518-863-4545 or 518-863-2833

    Other offices & headquarters can be found here: https://www.dec.ny.gov/about/558.html

    NYSDEC Ranger roster & phone numbers for Region 5: https://www.dec.ny.gov/about/677.html

    NYSDEC Ranger roster & phone numbers for Region 6: https://www.dec.ny.gov/about/679.html
    Last edited by Justin; 07-17-2018, 08:44 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Justin View Post
      NYSDEC Headquarters in...

      Ray Brook: 518-897–1200

      Warrensburg: 518-623-1200

      Northville: 518-863-4545 or 518-863-2833

      Other offices & headquarters can be found here: https://www.dec.ny.gov/about/558.html

      NYSDEC Ranger roster & phone numbers for Region 5: https://www.dec.ny.gov/about/677.html

      NYSDEC Ranger roster & phone numbers for Region 6: https://www.dec.ny.gov/about/679.html
      Thank you, sir.

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      • #18
        There is a tremendous amount of valuable information to be found on the NYSDEC web page (http://www.dec.ny.gov) and its sub-pages. Although it can be difficult to navigate to the many pages with information you may want, it is definitely worthwhile to take the time to investigate what is available. You can even sign up to receive periodic email containing subjects of interest that you select, including special announcements, news items and press releases, and synopses of recent SAR incidents. http://www.dec.ny.gov/public/65855.html

        Rangers at their listed phone numbers can sometimes be difficult to reach on first attempt (as they tend to be very busy people), but if you leave a voice message, in my experience they are usually quick to respond when they are able. If you develop a personal relationship with the rangers in areas that you frequent, they may give you inside information and personal contact numbers as well.

        Edit: But in an emergency situation, the Dispatch number is always the first choice to get aid and response, rather than trying to contact an individual ranger at that critical time.
        Last edited by Wldrns; 07-17-2018, 02:09 PM.
        "Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

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        • #19
          From personal experience, if you attempt to contact a DEC ranger directly, you might just get their voicemail. They're busy people and don't always have time to answer their phone (or are simply out or range of a cell tower).

          I have contacted rangers directly, predominately to get information. Results varied from getting through immediately, leaving a message and receiving a callback, not receiving a callback, and reaching a full voice-mailbox.

          In the event of an emergency, I'd contact DEC Dispatch directly and let them take care of organizing a response.


          EDIT

          Ninja'd by Wldrns!
          Looking for views!

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          • #20
            Thanks for the link and the sobering story. Regardless of how well Joe presented his information or his assessment of the emergency responders, there are lessons in there for everyone. A tree falling on me in the middle of the night is my worst fear while camping. I don't worry about animals or weather or people. In the ADKs, I've seen far too many trees laying horizontal on the ground to think that its a sporadic thing. I think a good portion of them do so because of the shallow soil depth and most of the ADKs are nothing more than a dry-ish swamp.

            I printed a PDF of the ranger numbers and saved it to my phone. I carry an inReach with a text function during hunting season when I'm sometimes alone. I haven't had to use the SOS function, but it is comforting to know that it is there.

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            • #21
              All this negativity towards local agencies is inspired from one person's account of an already bad incident. Honestly, the author's tone throughout the whole article seemed indicative of an agenda.

              Rangers can't always be directly reached. The ECO's have a hotline/dispatch, but they're not the primary response force for rescues.

              Reaching out to local police and fire agencies is better than reaching out to no one at all. Any speculation that this woman may have survived with earlier extraction is just that....speculation. First responders have a lot of uncertainty to deal with and on-the-spot decisions to make for any emergency situation. It's easy for the average person to judge them in hindsight, it's hard for the average person to make similar decisions in a real-life and stressful scenario.

              If genuine mistakes were made, people should be willing to learn from them. But I'm hesitant to acknowledge that any mistakes were made if all we're going off is one person's subjective retelling of the story.

              Comment


              • #22
                @bounder45

                The author was clearly disappointed with the perceived timeliness of the response and it shows in his writing. It's not an objective assessment but a personal view of what transpired.

                OK, so let's ignore the author's subjectivity and focus on what was accomplished.
                • At personal risk they exited the woods and were able to contact authorities.
                • 911 operators had difficulty pinpointing a location that's off the grid.
                • Authorities were dispatched.
                • They arrived with necessary equipment.
                • The first rescue team set out on foot and became lost.
                • The second rescue team set out by boat but turned back due to darkness, the rough conditions, unfamiliarity with the lake, pick one or more reasons.
                • The DEC rangers were dispatched, arrived, set out by boat, extracted the victim, and transported her back to be evacuated by air to hospital.

                My takeaway is that the training received by DEC rangers makes them better suited to handle backcountry emergencies. The local authorities did their best but the off-grid location and weather conditions challenged their procedures/training/abilities.


                I added the DEC's Dispatch number to my phone a long time ago. It's also on our home phone and is the number my wife will call if she doesn't hear from by midnight.


                It boils down to specialization. I wouldn't call DEC Dispatch if I saw a car accident in town nor would I call 911 if I saw an accident in the backcountry. What this incident highlights is that 911 does not appear to forward backcountry incidents to the DEC. It would be interesting to learn if the DEC forwards non-backcountry incidents to 911.
                Looking for views!

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                • #23
                  @Trailboss,
                  The Rangers specifically, not the DEC overall (which includes ECO's), are more focused on SAR than are local rescue and LE agencies. With that I agree.

                  The Rangers can't be everywhere at once, and neither can the local agencies. They can, and do, help or fill in for each other from time to time. BTW, I'm aware of an ECO dispatch phone number. I'm not aware of a Ranger dispatch phone number. Where did you find that?

                  The author's tone was expressing more than disappointment in my opinion. Go back and reread the author's account of the first encounter with the hikers and how the lead hiker (later to be the victim) was portrayed. It was apparent, to me at least, that the author was treating everyone around him as incompetent and or unsure.

                  Maybe there were missteps by the first responders. My point is this: people should refrain from making that determination based of one person's subjective account.
                  • Did the author truly and accurately represent the conditions that the firefighters were facing? It's dark, it's windy, trees have been falling down. These people weren't making decisions in a vacuum.

                  • Did the author accurately represent the decision-making of those responders? The reason for turning the boat around was not made readily apparent, and I'd certainly like to hear the firefighter's perspective on that rather than just rely on the author's tense and somewhat emotional narrative.


                  And for the record, it was the firefighters who got to the scene first, according to the author. The Rangers got on scene after the firefighters had already made contact with the victim. It's not apparent who actually extracted the victim, but given that the firefighters were there first and had chainsaws, I wouldn't be surprised if it was them.

                  Also, for a serious injury like that, I would most certainly prefer having firefighters or paramedics on scene, with or without the Rangers. Their life-saving skills are generally at a higher standard relative to the LE agencies.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Yes, we can never know for sure if the poor woman would have survived if she had been extracted sooner.

                    We do know that her extraction took far longer than it needed to. Had the local fire dept simply called the DEC rangers as soon as they were notified, it is likely she would have been reached hours sooner. The timing of the DEC's arrival suggests that the responding agency didn't notify them until the operation was well under way.

                    I suspect a bit of the local anti-state, anti APA, anti granola eating backpacker attitude was at play here. The fire dept didn't want their authority usurped by the rangers, and they sure as hell weren't going to listen to a couple of backpackers, even though they clearly knew the area better and had already successfully navigated their way back from the accident site in a relatively short time in the dark.

                    Firefighters and paramedics may have a higher degree of life saving skills, but they do no one any good if they can't get to the accident site in a timely matter.

                    And this article is a subjective viewpoint, to be sure. But it's also a firsthand account of someone who was there and experienced the operation. To simply dismiss it because it paints the local responding agency in a negative light seems unreasonable.

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                    • #25
                      I was first on the scene of an accident on Giant Mtn. this winter. Once we ascertained the victim would require an evacuation I was about to deploy the SOS function on my Spot device. At that moment I saw the victim's friend texting on her phone so instead I called 911, explained the situation and was immediately patched through to the DEC dispatch.
                      The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by madison View Post
                        We do know that her extraction took far longer than it needed to.
                        May I ask how "we" know that?
                        Just because Joe the aircraft mechanic (according to his LinkedIn page) had a hero streak to run to Walmart for chainsaws and shovels and feels the response to be inadequate (that he, personally, could have done it better) does not make that opinion a fact.

                        FWIW,
                        The tone of Joe's writing has a distinct elitist tinge.
                        Lynn was a more competent outdoors person, as far as credentials go anyways.

                        Place yourself in Lynn's shoes for a second - you have a party of four women who come upon a leanto (where they possibly planned to spend the night) to find two males in their 30's?. Their 'stuff' is strewn all over the shelter with "beers" rolling around in plain sight (by Joe's admission).

                        Do you tell your paying clients to cozy up to two strange guys who probably already had some of those "beers" or do you take your clients to a campsite elsewhere?

                        If someone really wants to know what was said in the 911 call and get a real time-line, all it takes is a FOIL request to Essex county dispatch and DEC.
                        Feverishly avoiding "a steady stream of humanity, with a view that offers little more than butts, boots, elbows and backsides". (description quote from Joe Hackett)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          @bounder45

                          No question the author used dismissive, judgmental language. It was the author's personal view of the incident and few actors in the account seemed to rise to the author's expectations. That's why I suggested we look past all that and just examine what was achieved that evening.


                          The weather was not in their favor that night. One can understand why the first boat crew chose to abort. However, on the same night the second boat crew succeeded. There's value in understanding why one succeeded and the other did not. Factors might include unfamiliarity with the lake, limited piloting skills in rough waters, overloaded boat, etc. Or maybe it was only a matter fortunate timing (a lull in the storm) that allowed the 2nd crew to succeed. Anyway, worth a look-see because if it was a matter of training/skills then it should be addressed.

                          Good point about who reached the victim first. I honestly don't know enough about how fire fighters and rangers compare in backcountry first-aid. I kind of lean towards rangers having an edge because (it's my understanding) they're trained for handling backcountry rescues and administering first-aid in wilderness conditions (like that complex rescue effort a few years ago of the young man who fell on Nippletop's icy slide).

                          One thing I feel confident about and that's the DEC rangers will know the area and get there ASAP. Plus they have the training and experience to get the job done safely and expediently.

                          RE: DEC Ranger Dispatch. It's the two phone numbers already mentioned earlier. One general number and one specifically for the Adirondacks.


                          I was in a group whose leader had to contact DEC rangers (to report overdue group members) and they picked up immediately. The dispatcher offered advice and if that didn't pan out they said to call back later and they'd dispatch a search team. Fortunately, the issue resolved itself within the allotted timeframe and the leader called the DEC to report all ended well.

                          .. I called 911, explained the situation and was immediately patched through to the DEC dispatch
                          There you go! Perhaps it's just the luck of the draw regarding which dispatch center or dispatch operator you get. Apparently the person you reached knew it was a job for DEC rangers.


                          EDIT
                          When I think about, it would seem odd to see firefighters responding to an incident at Marcy Dam. About as odd as seeing DEC rangers responding to an incident in Lake Placid. I imagine there are situations when they may call upon one another for assistance but, at least in my mind, there's a clear division of responsibilities between the two.
                          Last edited by Trail Boss; 07-19-2018, 02:27 PM.
                          Looking for views!

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                          • #28
                            It's a reasonable assumption. The fire dept made 3 failed attempts to reach the accident site in the first few hours before the DEC got there. The first- the firefighter with the chainsaw in the canoe with the author and his partner- might very well have succeeded had the fire chief not made them come back. The hikers had, after all, succeeded in making it back there under similar conditions. When the DEC arrived about 4 hours after the initial 911 call, they knew exactly where to go, promptly launched a boat a boat and extracted the victim.

                            Whether or not Lynn was a more competent outdoors person seems irrelevant in this case. She was the victim. Joe and his partner were competent enough to make it down the 1.5mile trail and across the lake in the dark and in stormy conditions to go for help. They were both more competent outdoors people than the initial responding agency, to be sure.

                            The picture of "beers rolling around in plain sight" seems to be an assumption on your part. The timeline of the story has Joe and his partner drinking a few beers later, after Lynn and her party and gone through, around the fire. You also seem to be insinuating that Joe and his partner were drunk when the hiking party approached, I guess as a way to discredit them? Again, that assumption is not supported by this account.

                            You can disagree with Joe's assessment of the local response. You can dislike his tone. But the fact is, he was there. We weren't. He and his partner also went for help in the middle of the night in dangerous conditions to aid an injured hiker, at personal risk to themselves. I think they deserve some credit for that.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by madison View Post
                              We do know that her extraction took far longer than it needed to. Had the local fire dept simply called the DEC rangers as soon as they were notified, it is likely she would have been reached hours sooner. The timing of the DEC's arrival suggests that the responding agency didn't notify them until the operation was well under way.

                              I suspect a bit of the local anti-state, anti APA, anti granola eating backpacker attitude was at play here. The fire dept didn't want their authority usurped by the rangers, and they sure as hell weren't going to listen to a couple of backpackers, even though they clearly knew the area better and had already successfully navigated their way back from the accident site in a relatively short time in the dark.
                              How do we know that the Rangers weren't contacted right away by the fire dept. and that it just took them a while to drive onto the scene?

                              How do we know the firefighters were anti-APA and were reluctant to bring in state authorities?

                              You seem to be judging and making assumptions about the firefighters purely based one person's subjective and emotional account.

                              The reason why I keep highlighting that the author's account is potentially biased is because people who read it may be inclined to make biased judgments/assumptions themselves, as you have just done.


                              @Trailboss,
                              I agree with much of what you're saying.

                              There may very well be lessons to be learned here. But it's important to develop an accurate context for those lessons before we decide to point the finger of blame (and I'm not saying that you are, rather just addressing the thread in general).

                              The Rangers are better-suited to SAR type missions than are most other state and local agencies. I do believe a lot of them have wilderness first aid training, but I'm not sure they're trained to the same standard as paramedics and firefighters (many of the latter are cross-trained as paramedics).

                              The author was coming across as a bit judgmental. I'm not saying that necessarily invalidates everything he's saying, but it's obvious that his bias can, and already has, influence how other people view the situation.



                              Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
                              RE: DEC Ranger Dispatch. It's the two phone numbers already mentioned earlier. One general number and one specifically for the Adirondacks.
                              Thanks! I didn't realize the Rangers had their own dispatch. That's a good number to have at the ready.
                              Last edited by Bounder45; 07-20-2018, 06:07 PM.

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                              • #30
                                For the record, I never insinuated that either Joe or Bill was drunk (at any point of their trip).

                                Joe himself writes:
                                "Our gear was strewn all over the floor of the lean-to, and we were sorting through our fishing stuff when four hikers approached"

                                "I brought a few beers from Connecticut, and Bill brought some from Vermont."

                                So if you consider the two statements, most likely several of the "few" and "some" "beers" were out in the open when "gear was strewn all over". One or two might have been open.

                                Think of how it would have looked to a professional guide and her clients. (even if no open containers of alcohol were present)

                                Further, statements like:
                                "We hoped they decided to continue hiking, or cut their trip short if they were worried about the storm. We pictured the four of them and their soaking wet packs piling into the lean-to with us during a thunderstorm. Then, we thought of spending the rest of the night being quizzed and corrected on our direction-finding skills by the grey-haired lady with the knee braces. Sounds like fun."

                                Should give you a good idea of authors mindset.

                                "She told us, in a loud enough voice that her three companions could hear, that they would “let us have the lean-to”"
                                "informed us—still loud enough for her group to hear—that Putnam Pond was southeast"

                                Why would Joe be surprised at a person, outside, on a pause from strenuous exercise (hiking) using an audible voice to converse between groups? I wasn't there and don't know...

                                Lynn merely had the courtesy of letting a pair of messy campers know that her group may seek shelter in leanto, if conditions warranted it later.

                                RE, "3 failed attempts"
                                The firefighter with chainsaw in canoe was probably not the 1st person sent out:
                                "We saw a paramedic come and quickly leave the area, and later learn that she and a firefighter are hiking in on one the trail from the campground"

                                Fire Chief was in charge of the incident, it take some nerve to question his judgement without a scant fact in hand. He recalled the canoe, only he knows why.

                                When DEC Rangers arrived later, conditions probably had changed. There are accounts of:
                                "DEC received notification of the incident at about 1 a.m. Saturday. The rescue crew found Malerba at about 2:30 a.m."
                                From: https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/v...n-malerba-dies

                                How unreasonable are those times in the middle of a severe weather outbreak?

                                Extracting (evacuating out of the woods) a pinned person is never the 1st priority, evaluating and stabilizing the person is...
                                Feverishly avoiding "a steady stream of humanity, with a view that offers little more than butts, boots, elbows and backsides". (description quote from Joe Hackett)

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