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Old 08-12-2012, 11:18 AM   #1
cfmsp
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seeking advice for Lake Lila Traverse trip

Hi,

Thanks in advance for any advice offered. I'm relatively new here (one year, with limited posts), but hope to return the favor as I gain more experience.

I'm planning a 4-5 day solo canoe camping trip for 2nd week of September, my first such trip in the Adirondaks.

I'm considering either St Regis or Whitney (the latter is first choice). I'm sure I'd be happy with either. Looking for remoteness and wildlife (esp, non-human mammals) for solitude and "back to nature". I'd be interested in opinions / comparisons of the two areas.

Re the Whitney choice, I'd like to combine Little Tupper and Lake Lila, either via the Traverse, or using a bike/car shuttle between the two, staying a couple of nights at each lake. The second option is mostly a bail out plan in the event I get to the lake with more gear than I can carry, or decide to take it easy (fat chance!).

Though I'm new to "carries" in wetlands, I do have decent outdoors experience, including orienteering, camping, trail running, bushwhacking, hut skiing, etc. I'm past my physical prime, but try to make up for that with preparation & knowledge. Thus my questions:

1) I'm curious about footwear for the carries - I'm thinking calf-high Chotas (or similar) may be in order for muck holes, bogs and such?

2) Is there a consensus on how best to carry gear (and keep dry) while portaging something like the long carry from Rock Pond? I'm considering SealLine Boundary Pack, or similar 70L dry pack. Other alternatives?

3) I'm planning to rent/buy a Hornbeck if I try the Traverse - my Yellowstone Solo is heavier than I want to deal with on carries. I'm assuming with such a light boat I won't really need a special carry system, such as one might devise if one did such trips regularly?

4) What do people typically do about bears? Bear canister or hang a bag? Carry pepper spray? I'd love to see bears, just don't want to attract them.


Apologies in advance for all the questions. I've seen threads here and there on the forum, but wanted to discuss these topics (with anyone willing) without opening up multiple old threads.

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks
clay
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:11 PM   #2
ALGonquin Bob
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Excellent choice of trip options! Both are about as remote as it gets in the Adirondacks, but in my experience, your wildlife viewing will be red squirrels, chipmunks, loons, and ducks. Of course, much larger fauna are there (black bear, moose, martens, and more), they're just not as likely to be seen; one of them nibbled on my Ursack on Follensby Clear Pond recently. Both areas require multiple carries, and both can be traversed quickly or take as long as you like.

SRCA. I haven’t done St. Regis for a few years, but I also did it solo in a 35-lb. Mohawk canoe back when I had to 2-time (triple, really) all the carries. The ponds are beautiful and I recall the carries as relatively easy, except maybe the 1+-mile carry to Long Pond. Others can describe that more accurately and recently for you. I will add that the NYS DEC has been closing some nice (possibly over used) waterfront sites and replacing them with small not-so-nice sites that are set far back in the woods. Many of those see little use for that reason.

WHITNEY LOOP. I did the popular portion of the Whitney loop (Little Tupper to Lows/Bog River) twice within the past 11 months, and can tell you that it is rugged but very satisfying to have done it, especially the Rock Pond to Lila traverse. The carries in that part of the loop are long, wet, and very boggy. Sometimes the carry trails are easy to follow, and in a couple places not-so-easy (bring a GPS receiver if you have one). Be sure to carry the "Adirondack Paddler’s Map" (available from St. Regis Canoe Outfitters and others), and get the most recent edition that more accurately shows the topography, carry trails, and campsites. Older editions omitted some carry trails, but the waterproof companion book ("Adirondack Paddler's Guide") by the same author, Dive Cilley, includes all that info. The section Between Lila and Lows Lake is fairly easy, with part of it on little-used railroad tracks (see my avatar). When I did this solo, a friend shuttled me from Lows Lower Dam to Little Tupper (a paid shuttle could cost up to $200). It’s something like 16 miles between those 2 points, so stashing a bike is within reason. I’m neither young nor in great shape, but I was able to 1-time my 50 lb. canoe and 30 lb. pack on my solo trip.

FEET. When I did it in May, I one-timed all the carries with my new 32 lb. canoe. Proper footwear is important; I used sandals & neoprene socks last fall and high “Boundary Boots” in May. The muck is deep, so be prepared to let some of it in over your boots!

CARRYING GEAR. I use my regular backpack with Seal Line Baja Dry Bags inside.

YOKES. Heavier boats need a yoke; you might not need a yoke for a lightweight Hornbeck, but that’s a personal preference issue. When I led a Canadian trip in May, one friend had a 10-foot Hornbeck with Hornbeck yoke, and managed all the carries fine. On the Whitney trip the following weekend, 2 friends had new 12-foot solo Hornbecks without yokes, and they struggled, requiring a double carry, or worse, a drag over the trails. Whether buying or renting a canoe, get a yoke. Another friend had a small Placid Boatworks canoe, and used a “custom” rig on her backpack that incorporated an upside down walker (the type used by some elderly folks), with the rubber tips supporting the canoe. I used a commercial wooden yoke that clamps onto the gunwales of my Wenonah solo.

BEARS. I don’t worry about them. All a black bear wants is an easy meal (think of them as a REALLY big racoon), so if you’re smart about food handling and storage, you won’t see any bears. I use an Ursack bear-resistant bag, and had it chewed on by something (maybe a raccoon or marten), but my food remained safe. If you have a bear canister and you have the room, bring it. I don’t carry pepper spray. Another friend recently did a trip up there and actually carried a rifle, which is absolutely not necessary. Food should be stored well away from camp, whether in a bear-resistant container or hung from a tree.

HAVE FUN!

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Old 08-12-2012, 08:00 PM   #3
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Bob,
thanks very much for the great info:

I'll take your mention of Ursack as a recommendation. I had it on list of potential bear bags for a couple of years.

Thanks for the warning about the shuttle cost, I'll drop off a bike at Lake Lila parking lot.

And thanks for the tip on Dave,'s book. I have the new map in hand, as well as a GPS device, and I was wondering how to check off the item for Guidebook on my checklist.

Great idea I hadn't considered for footwear in the muck - sandals and neoprene, but I'll likely try to "boundary boots" or similar.

Thanks so much for answering every question I had, and for answering so well, that I have little in the way of follow-ups.

For other readers / potential posters, I am curious what specialized dry pack you might use. I'm leaning in that direction I think, unless I try to rig up a carry device to a backpack frame.

Thanks again, Bob! Great stuff.

clay


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Old 08-12-2012, 08:14 PM   #4
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You're welcome, Clay. I have considered using a "Boundary Bag" water-proof backpack. It would do better while sitting in the bilge, but I already had the other gear for backpacking, so I'll continue to use my backpack & dry bags for now. I might start tying my Ursack in a tree above the ground instead of to the base of the tree, in order to reduce the ease of an animal gnawing on it when it's on the ground. I use the Ursack for backpacking when not in the eastern High Peaks, or in winter, and carry the bear canister when bulk and weight aren't an issue. Anytime in September is a great time for a canoe trip, and I plan to get back up there soon.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by cfmsp View Post
Bob,

For other readers / potential posters, I am curious what specialized dry pack you might use. I'm leaning in that direction I think, unless I try to rig up a carry device to a backpack frame.

Thanks again, Bob! Great stuff.

clay
Hi Clay,

I have an old version of one of the very large SealLine Boundary dry packs and I've used it a couple of times. It works extremely well keeping things dry but isn't that comfortable for long carries. I just picked up a small Sea to Summit Ultra Sil Dry Sac to put inside a waxed canvas daypack I got from Frost River. I got the dry sac to keep everything dry just in case... I use the daypack for day trips on the water and it works great! All my gear is in one bag and carries are a breeze. There are different sizes of the Ultra Sil Dry Sacs that will fit in a normal backpack. I don't think they would hold up to much use outside of a pack but inside a pack I think they would do what you want them to do AND you won't have to buy another pack!

Scott
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:33 AM   #6
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Hi Clay,

I have an old version of one of the very large SealLine Boundary dry packs and I've used it a couple of times. It works extremely well keeping things dry but isn't that comfortable for long carries. I just picked up a small Sea to Summit Ultra Sil Dry Sac ...
Scott
Thanks for your response, Scott, and for the warning that the SealLine Boundary might not be comfortable. I'd only be using the 70L (instead of the very large 115L), so maybe it'd not be such an issue. One concern I have with the Boundary is that people are reporting obvious wear at creases (with minimal use) due to the new, more eco friendly fabric in use.

The STS UltraSil has been on my radar since it was first released, so that's also my preference for in-pack dry sack. I have their heavier STS eVent Compressions sacks already, which I use for down bags and jackets (for winter camping). I've had great luck (so far) with SealLine's stuff as well, so I'm sure the Baja bag would work also.

thanks again,
clay
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:41 AM   #7
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I use the Ursack for backpacking when not in the eastern High Peaks, or in winter, and carry the bear canister when bulk and weight aren't an issue.
Bob,

If you don't mind, what bear canister do you carry? Are they all pretty much the same except for weight/size?

thx
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:42 AM   #8
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I hope this isn't too much thread drift. For bear protection, I also use an ursack as well as Cliff Jacobsen's "non-traditional rules". The ursack is tied to a tree as per manufacturers procedure. The tree is chosen as per Cliff's recomendations. My only addional trick is tying to the trunk where a notch or branch sticks out. This way I can jam the sack, or flip it over the branch as I tie it. Else I need to hold it against the tree with my face as I use my two hands to tie the knot. It also helps keep it from sliding down on smooth barked trees.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:12 AM   #9
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There is quite a variety in bear-resistant food canisters. I've had a "Bear Vault Solo" for several years that I use for myself, and stash it according to Cliff Jacobson's recommendations (basically: away from camp, out of sight, and nowhere near a trail or game trail). However, one or more Adirondack bears ("Yellow-Yellow" and her protégés) in the High Peaks have learned how to open the Bear Vault lids. I recently acquired a full-sized "Backpacker's Cache" canister (the type that requires a coin to open) and will use that as my prime food storage when I can comfortably carry a canister. The yellow plastic "Counter Assault" canisters seem to work all right, but I feel the plastic is too soft. "Backpacker's Cache" is the best, IMHO.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:40 PM   #10
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The bear cannister takes up ALOT of room in the 70l Sea Line. I find it difficult to pack efficiently with the dry pack compared to using a back pack.
It does work ok for carries of around a mile or less and it has always kept my gear dry.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:51 PM   #11
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The bear cannister takes up ALOT of room in the 70l Sea Line. I find it difficult to pack efficiently with the dry pack compared to using a back pack.
It does work ok for carries of around a mile or less and it has always kept my gear dry.
Good point regarding the bulk of a bear canister in a dry pack. I used my large Mountainsmith top load backpack and had plenty of room to carry the large canister inside the pack if I turned the canister sideways, and did multiple carries that way totaling 5 miles. The distance doesn't matter if the pack is comfortable. If space and weight are a major issue, use the Ursack.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:56 PM   #12
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The bear cannister takes up ALOT of room in the 70l Sea Line. I find it difficult to pack efficiently with the dry pack compared to using a back pack.
Thanks to both Bluequill and DuctTape for joining in with replies.

Very helpful.

Is the "difficult to pack efficiently" issue related to packing the Dry Pack with the sack lying flat and then standing it on end to carry? Like a front loader backpack.

I'll likely just try the Ursack on this trip, after I read up on Cliff Jacobsen's protocol.


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Old 08-13-2012, 04:10 PM   #13
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Is the "difficult to pack efficiently" issue related to packing the Dry Pack with the sack lying flat and then standing it on end to carry? Like a front loader backpack.

I'll likely just try the Ursack on this trip, after I read up on Cliff Jacobsen's protocol.
clay
I think it's a matter of dry bags not being flexible or stretchy like a regular pack, so you can't stuff or force something like a hard bear canister in and "make" it fit. It either fits or you can't put it in the dry bag/pack, and attaching it outside the pack is cumbersome and awkward.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:23 PM   #14
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I'm not a super light traveller to begin with. I don't do alot of backpacking, mostly paddle tripping and could probably cut down on a few things. I have an external frame pack and an Osprey internal 68. I can pack more in the Osprey and external frame than the dry pack because the cannister is strapped to the bottom of the pack leaving more room inside. Plus there are a myriad of pockets to stash other items. Don't get me wrong, the SL 70l is a nice piece of equipment but I wish I had the 115l for multi-day trips.
I use the 70l often for day trips in the fall and spring. Plenty of room to throw in a down jacket, rain gear, fishing tackle and photo equipment.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:02 PM   #15
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re bear cannisters

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALGonquin Bob View Post
I think it's a matter of dry bags not being flexible or stretchy like a regular pack, so you can't stuff or force something like a hard bear canister in and "make" it fit. It either fits or you can't put it in the dry bag/pack, and attaching it outside the pack is cumbersome and awkward.
There is a handy fitted nylon bag that is made for the Backpacker's Cache. Using this bag, I clip the Backpacker's cache through the sternum strap of my pack and it works out well. It doesn't wobble around much and it doesn't obscure my view of the trail. When I'm in my Hornbeck pack canoe, I clip the bag to the forward thwart.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:05 PM   #16
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Never been a fan of front packs, but if it works....
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:40 AM   #17
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Found a youtube video with an interview of Cliff Jacobson.

In the first section, he refers to needing "at least three packs (for canoeing)" and maybe more, but he doesn't explain his reasoning.

Anyone know why?

thanks in advance,
clay
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:16 AM   #18
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I saw Jacobson say the same thing and also wondered. I assume he has a day pack with rain gear, ditch kit, bug spray and other things you want to quickly access. Since he self-identifies as a "wilderness Martha Stewart", he probably has a separate pack devoted to cooking. Third, he has a primary big pack. Maybe he counts his chair as a fourth pack.

I use two packs: a Duluth pack with Granite Gear waterproof liner for primary gear and all cooking stuff, plus an inexpensive waterproof backpack as a day pack. My only cooking is boiling water with a Jetboil. I also usually take a heavy chair, which certainly I would count as a separate pack.

Last year I did buy bear spray and a holster. I also use an Ursack, realistically more for raccoon, mice and other rodents than bears. All my meals are commercial freeze dried, so they are sealed in their own bags within the Ursack. Other foodstuffs such as energy bars and garbage go in odor proof Opsaks, which I put inside the Ursack. I tie the Ursack onto a tree away from the campsite at about eye level.

For paddling and portaging over expected rocks, roots and mud, I use a draining neoprene bootie with a strong sole (NRS Attack Shoe) in warmer seasons. If I didn't expect mud, I would also consider just using my Bean Explorer sandals with various neoprene/poly/wool socks for everything. I might switch to NRS Boundary Boot mukluks in cold water conditions.

For bugs (black flies, ankle flies, deer flies, skeeters and whizbang beetles), I would wear long pants tucked into Permethrin treated socks (e.g., Columbia), a Permethrin treated hat, and carry a Permethrin treated headnet (e.g., Sea to Summit). On my six day solo trip last week I never used bug dope.

You also need water. I tried a new Platypus Gravity Works system and thought it was outstanding. Just scoop up four liters in the Dirty bag, hang the system, and you have four liters in the Clean bag within 10 minutes. Then you can smoke a Cuban and chuckle at the people standing in the water and struggling away with their handle pump filters.

I don't use a pack canoe such as a Hornbeck, but people carry them on their shoulders, or via a portage yoke, or by custom attachment onto a frame backpack. Heavier touring canoes require a portage yoke. Wheels will work for touring canoes except when they don't -- and when they don't, you have to carry them as a separate and clumsy pack item.

Dave Cilley of St. Regis Oufitters has authored the modern Dack paddlers guidebook and two accompanying paddlers maps, which are helpful for locating campsites and other things. Rob Frenette and Anne Fleck of Raquette River Outfitters offer their own detailed paddlers map of Lows Lake and Bog River.

I've taken my mapping GPS everywhere by car and canoe for the past 8 years. Lasted five full days, constantly on without the light, using Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:19 AM   #19
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I use

I use an old boy scout external frame pack with hip belt. I have brackets I made on top for a single trip hands free carry and weight on my hips.My Flashfire I now use weighs25#.I have owned 2 lighter boats and tryed a casual carry,but changed to this hands free system.Everything is in color coded dry bags inside on a carry. I also have a fanny pack which I carry around my waist seperatly always with me when away from camp or on carrys.It also is fastened ahead of me in the boat. It carrys survival kit,dog spray,bug dope,camera ect. I have never had trouble with bears,but a lot with peoples dogs. Be careful with your smelables and you don't need to worry about bears-they are only interested in 3 things-food,food,and FOOD. I take some of the bags out while paddling and stow them for desired trim. I am a firm beliver in peryathion treatment of clothing and hat before every season. I use horse spray. The deerfly sticky flypaper from Piragus realy works also. The Rock-Lila trip is great.Take the time to camp in the middle of it. I used to string bearbags,then bought a canister,and now use a Ratsack or Ursac exclusivly. I dubble bag all smellables and hang the bag off the ground tied to a substantial tree away from camp.
Have fun!,Turtle
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:44 AM   #20
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cfmsp - I'd say that after a slow start to this thread, you've received some pretty damn good answers! AG
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