Old Growth Forest Hike Suggestions - Page 2

montcalm · 02-07-2022, 10:58 PM

Yeah, there are 4 of them with him. I recommend them all, all great. The co-evolved species may not be as practical as the "Reading the forested Landscape" series.

montcalm · 02-07-2022, 11:01 PM

I highly recommend this:

https://youtu.be/5MCk-sWgdbU

the audio is not great and Kudish is a nut, but there's a lot of great info in this presentation. I wish he'd publish that damned book he wrote on the subject.

Bunchberry · 02-08-2022, 07:14 PM

A lot of good information here! We can put Ampersand on the list of hikes to do this summer. The Landis Arboretum sounds great because my wife can be part of the trip!!! They have a really funny facebook feed too!

montcalm · 02-08-2022, 07:24 PM

Pine Orchard (mentioned a couple times) is a really easy hike.

There's also an old growth patch of red spruce not too far away near the Goldmine Stream waterfall if you are down that way. McMartin claims there is a lot of old growth off of Powely-Piseco Rd.

Tug Hill · 02-09-2022, 07:26 PM

I have to agree that Kudish was a nut. When I was a student at PSC, one winter outdoor Dendrology lab, he picked a dry brown Cattail , stated you can eat these. He then took a bite out of it, and started to spit out the dry seeds. I think you can eat them when they are green ?

Wldrns · 02-09-2022, 07:39 PM

[QUOTE=Tug Hill;288923]I have to agree that Kudish was a nut. When I was a student at PSC, one winter outdoor Dendrology lab, he picked a dry brown Cattail , stated you can eat these. He then took a bite out of it, and started to spit out the dry seeds. I think you can eat them when they are green ?[/QUOTE

When green you can boil young green cattails before the "tails" turn brown and eat like a very thin corn on the cob. you can also eat the growing shoots... just pull up from the center growth leaves in spring and a pure white core will come up, crunchy good, tastes much like cucumber. I undestand that you can also eat the roots, roasted or dried, but I have never tried that.

montcalm · 02-09-2022, 08:06 PM

He was probably partially joking. Who knows - everyone I know who had him for Dendro loved him.

He makes some good points regarding first growth and old growth, although I'd tend to agree more with the NYNHP definition of the age of old growth being about half the age of the oldest living trees in that environment. Meaning "old growth" doesn't *have* to be that old, relatively speaking. It's more about how mature the forest is...

But Kudish points out some good environments where most trees simply won't get old, even if the species could (I'd tend to think the summit red oaks in the eastern ADKs are the best examples of this). So this creates a bit of mess - and "first growth" makes more sense (although some will argue the presence of oak means it is not first growth).

So I think he's on to something, and I think that it we could really get bogged down with these definitions.

Question then becomes, what it means to you? I'm sure some could care less, but this kind of stuff could be the most precious forest we have, and we probably have more than anywhere in the NE, maybe even the east coast, in the park.

Tug Hill · 02-09-2022, 08:49 PM

Yes, I’m pretty sure he was joking around. It was funny watching him spitting the seeds out and they were floating in the air. And yes, I did enjoy his classes.

montcalm · 02-10-2022, 02:55 PM

https://gisservices.dec.ny.gov/gis/erm/

This is a pretty good tool as well. If you look at the layer called "Significant Natural Communities" there are number of things listed in the park. Some are old growth, some first growth, some are just high quality or rare communities e.g. Appalachian Oak-Pine forest on the east side of the Tongue of Lake George.

I think it's missing a number of things in all categories, but it's a interesting tool if you want to check out different environs.

trailnotfound · 04-06-2022, 05:40 PM

Just wanted to say thanks, montcalm, for the great info you've posted! This is a fascinating thread; I've learned a lot.

montcalm · 04-06-2022, 05:57 PM

You bet - I've been interested in this for years but I never really made a serious effort. More passive...

But with that, I must say, my interest in it has changed. I'm not really much interested in the biggest or oldest trees, but more about the structures of these forest and how they evolve from disturbance, both natural, and human influenced.

It just so happens the forest preserve is the absolute best lab for this because it really has it all, whether it had been demolished by logging and/or human induced fire, whether it was "virgin" and has been preserved, or whether it was "virgin" and has been naturally disturbed by wind and fire.

TrailBlaser · 04-06-2022, 06:51 PM

Get the Sierra Club Guide to Ancient Forests of the Northeast. I got it through my local public library. Lots of leads to them all over the northeast.

chairrock · 04-17-2022, 01:23 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi12xaJxA5U

02-07-2022, 10:58 PM	#21
montcalm curb my enthusiasm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 2,270	Yeah, there are 4 of them with him. I recommend them all, all great. The co-evolved species may not be as practical as the "Reading the forested Landscape" series. Last edited by montcalm; 02-08-2022 at 08:38 AM..

02-09-2022, 07:39 PM	#26
Wldrns Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Western Adirondacks Posts: 4,444	[QUOTE=Tug Hill;288923]I have to agree that Kudish was a nut. When I was a student at PSC, one winter outdoor Dendrology lab, he picked a dry brown Cattail , stated you can eat these. He then took a bite out of it, and started to spit out the dry seeds. I think you can eat them when they are green ?[/QUOTE When green you can boil young green cattails before the "tails" turn brown and eat like a very thin corn on the cob. you can also eat the growing shoots... just pull up from the center growth leaves in spring and a pure white core will come up, crunchy good, tastes much like cucumber. I undestand that you can also eat the roots, roasted or dried, but I have never tried that. __________________ "Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

02-10-2022, 02:55 PM	#29
montcalm curb my enthusiasm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 2,270	https://gisservices.dec.ny.gov/gis/erm/ This is a pretty good tool as well. If you look at the layer called "Significant Natural Communities" there are number of things listed in the park. Some are old growth, some first growth, some are just high quality or rare communities e.g. Appalachian Oak-Pine forest on the east side of the Tongue of Lake George. I think it's missing a number of things in all categories, but it's a interesting tool if you want to check out different environs. Last edited by montcalm; 02-10-2022 at 07:54 PM..

04-06-2022, 06:51 PM	#32
TrailBlaser Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Brewster, NY Posts: 386	Get the Sierra Club Guide to Ancient Forests of the Northeast. I got it through my local public library. Lots of leads to them all over the northeast. __________________ "Between every two pines is a doorway to a new world." John Muir

04-17-2022, 01:23 PM	#33
chairrock Indian Mt.Club Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,692	The lost forests of new england https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi12xaJxA5U __________________ Be careful, don't spread invasive species!! When a dog runs at you,whistle for him. Henry David Thoreau CL50-#23

02-07-2022, 11:01 PM	#22
montcalm curb my enthusiasm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 2,270	I highly recommend this: https://youtu.be/5MCk-sWgdbU the audio is not great and Kudish is a nut, but there's a lot of great info in this presentation. I wish he'd publish that damned book he wrote on the subject.

02-08-2022, 07:14 PM	#23
Bunchberry Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 77	A lot of good information here! We can put Ampersand on the list of hikes to do this summer. The Landis Arboretum sounds great because my wife can be part of the trip!!! They have a really funny facebook feed too!

02-08-2022, 07:24 PM	#24
montcalm curb my enthusiasm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 2,270	Pine Orchard (mentioned a couple times) is a really easy hike. There's also an old growth patch of red spruce not too far away near the Goldmine Stream waterfall if you are down that way. McMartin claims there is a lot of old growth off of Powely-Piseco Rd.

02-09-2022, 07:26 PM	#25
Tug Hill Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 280	I have to agree that Kudish was a nut. When I was a student at PSC, one winter outdoor Dendrology lab, he picked a dry brown Cattail , stated you can eat these. He then took a bite out of it, and started to spit out the dry seeds. I think you can eat them when they are green ?

02-09-2022, 08:06 PM	#27
montcalm curb my enthusiasm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 2,270	He was probably partially joking. Who knows - everyone I know who had him for Dendro loved him. He makes some good points regarding first growth and old growth, although I'd tend to agree more with the NYNHP definition of the age of old growth being about half the age of the oldest living trees in that environment. Meaning "old growth" doesn't have to be that old, relatively speaking. It's more about how mature the forest is... But Kudish points out some good environments where most trees simply won't get old, even if the species could (I'd tend to think the summit red oaks in the eastern ADKs are the best examples of this). So this creates a bit of mess - and "first growth" makes more sense (although some will argue the presence of oak means it is not first growth). So I think he's on to something, and I think that it we could really get bogged down with these definitions. Question then becomes, what it means to you? I'm sure some could care less, but this kind of stuff could be the most precious forest we have, and we probably have more than anywhere in the NE, maybe even the east coast, in the park.

02-09-2022, 08:49 PM	#28
Tug Hill Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 280	Yes, I’m pretty sure he was joking around. It was funny watching him spitting the seeds out and they were floating in the air. And yes, I did enjoy his classes.

04-06-2022, 05:40 PM	#30
trailnotfound Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 28	Just wanted to say thanks, montcalm, for the great info you've posted! This is a fascinating thread; I've learned a lot.

04-06-2022, 05:57 PM	#31
montcalm curb my enthusiasm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 2,270	You bet - I've been interested in this for years but I never really made a serious effort. More passive... But with that, I must say, my interest in it has changed. I'm not really much interested in the biggest or oldest trees, but more about the structures of these forest and how they evolve from disturbance, both natural, and human influenced. It just so happens the forest preserve is the absolute best lab for this because it really has it all, whether it had been demolished by logging and/or human induced fire, whether it was "virgin" and has been preserved, or whether it was "virgin" and has been naturally disturbed by wind and fire.

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