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  • #16
    Well, Trail Boss it's the news that sells that makes the news. It's been spun into a feel-good story for Christmas and dished up to a beleaguered public.

    It was reported by the ranger who found them that they had a GPS. My guess is they fell before digging it out and switching it on.
    The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Neil View Post
      Well, Trail Boss it's the news that sells that makes the news. It's been spun into a feel-good story for Christmas and dished up to a beleaguered public.

      It was reported by the ranger who found them that they had a GPS. My guess is they fell before digging it out and switching it on.
      That sounds plausible!
      "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

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      • #18
        Most catastrophic situations are not the result of a singular decision or happenstance, but the cascading effect of many small decisions and events. This was a close call, and it is likely that a few small decisions and events contributed to their plight and also their ultimate survival.
        "There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us, And the Wild is calling, calling . . . let us go." -from "The Call of the Wild" by Robert Service

        My trail journal: DuctTape's Journal

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Justin View Post
          Was it reported that they didn't have a compass (or knew how to use one), or are we just assuming that?
          There's no report of them having one but, I agree with your point, it doesn't mean they didn't have one. So let's go through a process of deduction:

          If they did possess a compass, their story doesn't mention using it (like the GPS they had).

          If they used either the unmentioned compass or the mentioned GPS, the evidence indicates they used it incorrectly. Their bearing on the summit was 135 degrees in the wrong direction.

          By their own testimony, they walked off the summit towards a clearing and shortly thereafter fell and became mired in snow, southeast of the summit. The trail is due north.

          In a nutshell, they became disoriented and walked in whatever direction offered visibility (without the aid of a bearing or with an incorrect bearing).

          Beginner winter hikers must accept the fact the alpine zone isn't just a treeless tundra. It's colder and windier and, especially in winter, nearly featureless. Clouds roll in and reduce visibility, sometimes to zero. Once you lose sight of the rut you were following, and your tracks, and the cairns, what is your exit strategy? Will your direction be randomly chosen from one of 360 degrees? You should have the answer in advance because your life may depend upon it.
          Looking for views!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
            Beginner winter hikers must accept the fact the alpine zone isn't just a treeless tundra. It's colder and windier and, especially in winter, nearly featureless. Clouds roll in and reduce visibility, sometimes to zero. Once you lose sight of the rut you were following, and your tracks, and the cairns, what is your exit strategy? Will your direction be randomly chosen from one of 360 degrees? You should have the answer in advance because your life may depend upon it.
            Another perfect example why I would support some sort of user permit system for high-use areas, especially in the High Peaks.

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            • #21
              I just checked my emergency kit and my whistle is missing. This might be a good time to check out your kit.
              "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

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              • #22
                @Justin

                Please elaborate how a user permit system would've prevented this incident. It would need a substantial educational component with particular emphasis on winter travel, notably in the alpine zone.

                Despite clear signage at the trailhead, indicating required winter-time equipment and the need for snowshoes, they proceeded with one set of snowshoes, a bare minimum of essential gear and, from all appearances, they had no change of clothing (she commented on being cold in the wet clothing they wore).

                Effectively, they ignored instructions that could've saved them a great deal of suffering. If the permit system is equally educational as the trailhead signs, one shouldn't expect much improvement in hiker behavior. The permit system would have to do better.

                Your best bet Justin would be to find some place that implemented a user-permit system and measured a marked decrease in backcountry rescues as a result. That kind of evidence would go a long way to justify its implementation in the Adirondacks. Show Albany how it can save money and you'll have its ear.

                I remain skeptical but I'd wouldn't be displeased to be proven wrong. The status quo isn't optimal and there's no sign anything will improve.
                Looking for views!

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                • #23
                  @Taras
                  What is this, Twitter?

                  I think that your questions & posts would be good examples of what should be officially addressed in order to be able to legally hike/camp in high use areas, especially during winter like conditions.

                  #Requiredsafeandresponsiblehikingpracticesinhighus eanddangerousareas

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                  • #24
                    #TooLazyToQuoteYourPost



                    It's clear the trailhead signs aren't 100% effective. The beginners who slip by and repeat mistakes made by last years beginners, cost a tidy sum to rescue. Seems there's enough financial incentive to at least explore the option of system that requires a degree of proficiency to allow entry.

                    Otherwise, just go with the "nuclear deterrence" option adopted by New Hampshire. Charge for rescues. Buying a Hike Safe card absolves you of fees if you're found to be negligent (but not if reckless). If you don't have the card and you're found to be negligent or reckless, you get a bill.

                    FWIW, Hike Safe seems like a cheap and easy system to manage compared to a permit system.
                    Looking for views!

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                    • #25
                      Came across this link on Reddit, a first hand account of what the hikers say happened. They actually fell down the side of the mountain looking for the trail, which they couldn't see due to being socked in by dense fog. Scary stuff.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
                        There's no report of them having one but, I agree with your point, it doesn't mean they didn't have one.

                        Beginner winter hikers must accept the fact the alpine zone isn't just a treeless tundra. It's colder and windier and, especially in winter, nearly featureless. Clouds roll in and reduce visibility, sometimes to zero. Once you lose sight of the rut you were following, and your tracks, and the cairns, what is your exit strategy? Will your direction be randomly chosen from one of 360 degrees? You should have the answer in advance because your life may depend upon it.
                        They did have a cell phone and their battery apparently was OK. There seem to be a few free compass and/or GPS apps available. I wonder if having one would have helped?

                        We were all beginners at one point and while we are often taught what we should do when we "begin" doing something its not always galvanized in us through the "teaching" rather it is an actual experience that does the galvanizing. I think we can all relate to this if we look back at our youth. Lucky for them they will have another chance, if they elect to do so, to experience the outdoors.

                        “I also learned how valuable it is to bring the necessary gear,” she said. “I mean, we were geared for the hike, but we weren’t geared for the unexpected.”
                        My YouTube channel

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                        • #27
                          I find it interesting NH has a process in place, hike safe card, and NY does not. We are famous for our regulation and NH is opposite. Over here in Western NY a hunter was just arraigned for criminally negligent homicide. Tragic 'accident' but when the police looked into it it was easily preventable IF the hunter followed the basic safety techniques taught while getting your hunting permit. I wonder if that is the direction. If I have been told ti bring a head-lamp, even for day hikes, and I choose not to...

                          Trailboss - YOU taught me that my trusty water filter is not so trusty for cold weather hiking. I never would have picked that up. One article talks about how social media and such brings more people to the woods. Well, it can also better educate people as well.

                          I chose tenderfoot as a screen name because even with hiking & camping experience, military field experience, and Scout leader experience I still am humbled by the trail craft shared here. So thanks to the Rangers and SAR but also to you guys for your wisdom and patience sharing it.
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          Eyes on the Forest, not on the Trees

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                          • #28
                            A glimpse at what it takes to pull it off:
                            Feverishly avoiding "a steady stream of humanity, with a view that offers little more than butts, boots, elbows and backsides". (description quote from Joe Hackett)

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                            • #29
                              Brendan, I'm usually in agreement with you but a few things you said made me wince.

                              Originally posted by DSettahr
                              This kind of behavior doesn't actually "usually" result in a rescue, though, and that's part of the problem. For every unskilled and unprepared group out there that needs rescuing, there are hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of other groups out there that are similarly unskilled and unprepared that make it through their hikes relatively unscathed.
                              I agree the rescue to trip ratio is very small. My commentary was focused on the same rookie mistake repeated for the fourth winter in recent years. It's becoming a regular feature to open the winter hiking season: newbies blindly walking off an alpine summit.

                              How many people blindly wander off an alpine summit in winter and DON'T require a rescue? If you know this statistic please share it. I don't believe anyone knows the answer because it's not measured. Let's not speculate about unknown stats and focus on what is known, this injurious beginner's error.

                              Even for the inexperienced, the chances of needing to be rescued in the backcountry are relatively small, and that unfortunately makes it all that much harder to explain why certain skills and gear are necessary.
                              Harder? Point to the four consecutive seasons of people losing body parts to frostbite or, in one case, dying of hypothermia. All because of easily mitigated errors. Sounds compelling to me.

                              ...that emergency situations are rarely the product of a single action or mistake, but more frequently the result of multiple small decisions and events that, when left unchecked, snowball into one major emergency situation.
                              Yes and no. It's not quite like an aviation disaster where an unanticipated chain of failures finds a bypass route around fortified and multiply redundant systems and procedures. Hiking accidents aren't usually that tricky; typically it's "A+B=Oh $hit". You provided a perfect example:

                              The classic example of this is carrying a headlamp (or other light source). With it, getting caught out in the dark is rarely more than a minor inconvenience. Without it, getting caught out in the dark can be a major issue with the potential to result in even worse circumstances (getting lost, injured, ailments from exposure, etc.)
                              • For want of a headlamp, the day-hike became an unplanned overnight.
                              • For want of a bearing, the day-hike became an unplanned overnight.


                              This years crop of lemmings walked off shrouded Algonquin without the benefit of a bearing (despite having a GPS). Like their predecessors, they left their fate to chance ("This way looks promising"). Someone ought to tell them that hikers who go on to climb dozens of winter peaks don't succeed by leaving important decisions to chance. However, you'll be hard pressed to find this reported by the media. They're too busy romanticizing the accident as yet another man vs nature epic.

                              Originally posted by SaraHikes View Post
                              Came across this link on Reddit, a first hand account of what the hikers say happened. They actually fell down the side of the mountain looking for the trail, which they couldn't see due to being socked in by dense fog. Scary stuff.
                              The reason that article is now in Google's version of carbonite is because the Daily Gazette expunged it and released an updated version with fewer flaws.

                              They didn't fall 100 feet off the mountain because there's no such place on Algonquin to do it. They walked southeast, 265 feet away from the summit (to the location where they were found). That distance from the summit happens to be at an elevation that is 100 feet lower. It's not a precipice but a slope. Somewhere along that 265-foot slope, probably near its very end, they did slip down a steep section and became mired in snow. They tried but couldn't re-climb it so they stayed put.

                              They were somewhere within the highlighted area I've drawn on Algonquin's southeastern side:


                              They lived because of their youth and fitness and not because of exceptional survival abilities.
                              1. You don't walk off a clouded alpine summit in a random direction. You consult a map & compass or GPS to acquire a bearing. The teenagers had a GPS but there's no indication they used it. If they did, they misused it (went southeast instead of north).
                              2. If you can't walk without seeing where you're going, you risk falling down a slope (like they did). You pause and wait for the next fleeting glimpse; it may be a very long pause.
                              3. If only one has snowshoes (as was the case), you are forced to operate at the level of the lowest common denominator. Groups require parity in critical equipment.
                              4. If you didn't bring a change of clothes you'll be forced to bivouac in the sweat-soaked clothing you had hiked in (like they did). Extended winter survival requires dry insulation.
                              5. If you dump your pack's contents on unconsolidated snow you will lose equipment and food (like they did). Think before acting rashly.
                              6. If you don't make yourself visible (they didn't), searchers will have a hard time spotting you. Something that contrasts against the snow is needed.
                              7. If you don't use a whistle (they didn't) you'll shout yourself hoarse.



                              Originally posted by bioguide View Post
                              They did have a cell phone and their battery apparently was OK. There seem to be a few free compass and/or GPS apps available. I wonder if having one would have helped?
                              Forgive me if I sound cynical. The ranger reported they had a GPS. Nevertheless there's no evidence they used it. Therefore if they had a GPS app on their phone, I have little confidence they would've used it either.

                              Let's not overlook the fact there's a compass app on iPhones (and free versions are available for Android). Had they known they approached Algonquin from the north, their phone could've told them in which fog-bound direction to go.

                              Otherwise, yes, a GPS app can be the difference between heading down the correct versus incorrect side of a mountain. ViewRanger is free for both iPhone and Android. Paid versions like Gaia and Motion-X (for iPhone) and AlpineQuest and Locus Map (for Android) offer a broader selection of maps and features. A modern phone's GPS hardware rivals the sensitivity of old purpose-built GPS receivers. The key thing to remember is GPS apps are battery-hungry.


                              “I also learned how valuable it is to bring the necessary gear,” she said. “I mean, we were geared for the hike, but we weren’t geared for the unexpected.”


                              Oh my. I really would like to believe by "gear" she also means knowledge and skills but I doubt it. They brought gear for at least one flavor of unexpected, the GPS. There's no indication it was used and if was, it was used incorrectly. I implore their parents to send their children to a winter outdoor skills class (BEFORE gifting them a PLB/SPOT/InReach).

                              Originally posted by tenderfoot View Post
                              Trailboss - YOU taught me that my trusty water filter is not so trusty for cold weather hiking. I never would have picked that up.
                              That's why we hang out here in between hikes, to share our tips, successes and failures so we can all spend safer and more enjoyable days in the outdoors.
                              Last edited by Trail Boss; 12-18-2016, 10:11 PM. Reason: typo
                              Looking for views!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Trail Boss View Post
                                [*]If you didn't bring a change of clothes you'll be forced to bivouac in the sweat-soaked clothing you had hiked in (like they did). Extended winter survival requires dry insulation.
                                It appears as though they did have extra layers of clothing. From one of the Gazette articles...

                                "On the one hand, vanLaer said Alois had “above average” gear packed for the trip, and the pair carried a GPS device, emergency blanket, extra layers of clothing, fire starting equipment and a crank flashlight. They each had microspikes, but they had just one pair of snowshoes."

                                There hasn't been any mention that I can find saying whether they had dry base layers as well. This sort of suggests perhaps just an extra jacket or fleece or mid layer? Absent a shelter I would assume whatever they had got wet.

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