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  • #16
    Brave soul wetting out two layers at once.
    How long did you let the carbon cure before releasing from the plug? (~48 hrs? a day for carbon and a day for glass)

    Looking really good from the pics, and 17 lbs sounds pretty good for the full hull with sealed stems.

    Hindsight being 20/20, do you think it's possible to glass the plug first then lay the carbon from inside once glass hull is off the plug and fully cured? Would the glass even be stiff enough to release before fully cured? I'm thinking it'd be easier to conform the glass to the hard edges/contours (but probably wouldn't be any less work/time)

    I admire you skill set of working with composites!
    Feverishly avoiding "a steady stream of humanity, with a view that offers little more than butts, boots, elbows and backsides". (description quote from Joe Hackett)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Zach View Post
      Thanks for the updates. The video was very suspenseful with all of the scary noises as the hulls separated, I'm glad it all came off in one piece and I hope that all that work didn't set back your surgery recovery. It's amazing how fast it took shape, I've been used to strip canoe builds where the process is so much slower.
      Zach
      Zach,
      The hands are recovering well, but I have yet to get all of my grip strength back. Also, there are certain finger/palm/wrist orientations that are not yet possible.
      My son Josh stopped by, and when he studied my results, and heard the total time invested, he asked when can we build a carbon version of his favorite hull, my 17 footer. He's been around all sorts of builds for all of his life, and this method really impressed him!
      And the scary noises? The ones on the video were nothing compared to earlier in the release. I stopped a few times and peered in the gap with a flashlight, convinced that something must be wrong.

      Originally posted by timberghost View Post
      Brave soul wetting out two layers at once.
      How long did you let the carbon cure before releasing from the plug? (~48 hrs? a day for carbon and a day for glass)

      Looking really good from the pics, and 17 lbs sounds pretty good for the full hull with sealed stems.

      Hindsight being 20/20, do you think it's possible to glass the plug first then lay the carbon from inside once glass hull is off the plug and fully cured? Would the glass even be stiff enough to release before fully cured? I'm thinking it'd be easier to conform the glass to the hard edges/contours (but probably wouldn't be any less work/time)

      I admire you skill set of working with composites!
      timberghost,
      I've wetted out multiple layers many, many times. But it's been quite a while since I've used 6 oz E-glass. And of course, I've barely worked with carbon before, maybe a different weave would be easier to handle. I did use some bias woven carbon tape, and it was supple and very easy to wrap into tight corners.
      I'm very happy with the weight, I should be able to keep the complete boat down around 25 lbs!

      I hadn't considered any partial layup on the plug, with additional layers applied after removal. The glass would certainly have conformed fully to the crease/sheer.
      And wetting out the carbon from the inside would have the advantage of being able to definitely leave the weave exposed for better footing/traction.
      I tried to use some clothespins to hold the carbon in place at the sheer, but the gunnels on my plug prevented that, and I don't have the required army of spring clamps. Had I done the layup as you asked, I could have used those clothespins to force the carbon to conform to the glass. I'll have to keep that in mind for the next composite build.
      I may end up using a variation of that method anyway, depending on whether or not I'll need any additional layers to stiffen sections of the hull.
      The only negative I could foresee is that it's much, much easier to work on the outside of the hull, rather than armpit deep on the inside.

      How long did everything cure before I popped the shell off of the plug? Let's see, I wet out the carbon on Thursday evening, finishing around 7:30 PM. I draped the glass the next morning, and finished that wet out by noon on Friday. I popped the shell free Saturday morning when hickoryskier stopped by around 11:00 AM. I would not have wanted to wait much longer. If my basement were warmer, the time schedule that I used would have been too long. This particular hull, while surprisingly easy to strip, is assuredly not the best choice for this sort of shell/plug effort.

      I suppose if I had looked far enough ahead, I would have built the cedar strip Kite up to the point of glassing the outside only. And I would have allowed some extra height on the sheer. That way, I would not have any gunnels to get in the way, and the extra sheer height might help the carbon remain stuck in the crease sections. But I guess that hindsight would have been 20/10!

      And I must mention, I'm posting this build not for any sort of recognition.
      I specifically detail these efforts to help others that may consider the same sort of build. And, as it happens in this case, I have gained some insight as well, so that my next build (and maybe someone else's first build) will be better than this one.

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      • #18
        I've been wondering what happened next and if the hull stayed in shape after being placed on the forms. It looks very exciting so far.
        Zach

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Zach View Post
          I've been wondering what happened next and if the hull stayed in shape after being placed on the forms. It looks very exciting so far.
          Zach
          Zach,
          Thanks for asking. There was a delay in my efforts as I was away in Virginia Beach delivering a Harley that I rebuilt.
          But the hull has maintained its shape nicely on just 3 forms, no sagging at all!!



          Just before I left, I managed to get one stem partially closed with carbon fiber. It will need some foam epoxied in place to better shape it, same for the bow, carbon, foam, more carbon. And then I can add some glass and Dynel to the stems, and apply a couple of fill coats. I have about 3 months before I plan to use the carbon copy, and the challenging part, IMHO, is behind me, so I'll relax as I continue to finish up.

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          • #20
            OK,
            I made a little progress on the carbon copy.
            Just before I left for Va, I had trimmed the stems back, and closed the one stem using some carbon scraps cut on a 45 degree bias.

            Here's a look at that stem



            I wasn't at all pleased with the results...the stem on this hull is designed to be rather blunt, but this was looking like an anvil!!
            So I decided to epoxy on some foam to provide some material to form a better profile. Had to shave and hollow some parts of a foam filler piece to fit the changing (erratic is more like it) cross sectional profile.

            I toyed with the idea of treating the other stem the same, carbon fiber closure first, then foam, but thought better of it. I added some foam to the other stem too.
            After the epoxy (with added Cabosil) cures, I'll shape both ends to a pleasing profile and add more carbon fiber, and glass. The one stem will have a carbon sandwich, the other end I'll need to add a layer of carbon on the inside, to also have a carbon sandwich.

            Here's how the stems look now, ugly for the moment, but easily shaped later.





            Other end




            And an overall view


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            • #21
              The hull looks great, I'm amazed at how well it retained the shape. I don't have much experience with foam, but I hope it will do what you want it to. Thanks for keeping on with the updates, I am always interested to see projects as they unfold.
              Zach

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              • #22
                Well, here's a little more progress. I sanded those added foam chunks to match the hull profile, and rounded the ends. I cut up some more stem strips and wetted them out. Another hour or so. Now, I wait. Soon, I'll add a couple layers of glass to the stems, then I'm ready for some covering coats.

                Here's the one end...I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I've lost track of which end is bow and which is the stern. I think it will be obvious once I flip it around.
                Anyway, this is the end that I had initially closed in with a layer of carbon, and later added the foam. You can't see the foam under the carbon, but trust me, it's there.



                This is the other end, that has foam only. You can see the foam peeking out from under the soon to be wet out carbon.



                And here's how it looks after wetting out the 2 layers of bias cut carbon. I did have to wet out each layer separately.



                I'll also add some Dynel to the stems, for abrasion resistance. That Dynel sucks up the epoxy like an old sweatshirt and always looks ugly as can be. No big deal, I do plan to paint this hull on the outside, so none of the ugly will show through.

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                • #23
                  Stripperguy-

                  Interesting project and great tutorial. One thought, is there any concern with the compressibility of the foam leading to cracking of the carbon should the stems strike anything?
                  “Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
                  ― Cormac McCarthy

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Glen View Post
                    Stripperguy-

                    Interesting project and great tutorial. One thought, is there any concern with the compressibility of the foam leading to cracking of the carbon should the stems strike anything?
                    Good question, Glen.
                    The foam that remained after it was profiled was a bit smaller than the carbon/glass over foam gunnels on the stripped Kite.
                    The stripped Kite has a single layer of 5.5 oz carbon, and a layer of 6 oz glass. Here's a look at those gunnels, in process.




                    Those gunnels easily survived cartopping directly against my Thule racks. I cinch down the boat with a 1" nylon strap, looped under the racks. I would estimate I apply 1/2 to 3/4 of my body weight when tightening. All this boils down to an estimated contact stress in excess of 1,000 psi. I have not seen any permanent deformations due to those stresses.

                    So, my belief is that I should not see any deformations to the stems due to impact stress. I have a single layer of 5.9 oz carbon below the foam, and 2 layers of 5.9 carbon, and 2 layers of 6 oz glass over the foam. BTW, the foam is Divinycell from DIAB, specifically made for composite construction.
                    They build high performance sailboats and experimental aircraft from this stuff.
                    I have no intention of paddling the Screamin' Sixties, nor flying this Kite at 10,000 ft!!

                    It should be OK. Besides, cut open nearly any modern high performance canoe, and you'll likely find the same sort of layup.
                    Last edited by stripperguy; 01-31-2017, 08:04 PM.

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                    • #25
                      It's looking good, I'll be interested to see how it goes on. I can't remember anymore how to tell one end from the other, except for the amount of rocker and that would be hard to tell when it's been moved from where it started. On my Kite I had strips that were spalted on one end, so I put all of those ends to the bow and then I could check which end was which whenever I needed to during the build. Thanks for keeping us up to date.
                      Zach

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                      • #26
                        Zach,
                        I went back and reviewed my photos. When I first had the Kite on the sawhorses, it was bow towards the front of the house. Later, when I supported the Kite on the forms, it was stern towards the front of the house. And that's how the carbon copy remains. Once I really looked at it, it's pretty clear which end is which.

                        I did apply a covering coat of resin last night, and shortly I'll head downstairs to apply the final covering coat. Also, I think I may have figured a way to make lemonade out of those sloppy sheer lines!

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                        • #27
                          Well, the carbon copy Kite is on the cradle!
                          I weighed it after the second fill coat of epoxy...19.5 lbs and counting.
                          It'll lose a little when I trim the excess sheer, then start gaining again as the trim is added.

                          And now we can inspect those crazy foam stems. Remember, one end, the bow, has carbon on both sides of the foam. The other end, stern, has no carbon on the inside of the foam, yet. The stern will have the foam shaped to a pleasant fillet, then a layer of carbon goes on. I don't think I'll have any bulkheads, definitely no decks. Probably 3 thwarts and a pair of seat supports, all carbon fiber over foam, and a full carbon fiber tractor seat. I am also forced into carbon/glass over foam gunnels by my self imposed weight goals.

                          Enough BS, you guys only look at the photo anyway...










                          And here is a link to all of the photos.

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                          • #28
                            Looking good !
                            Phil



                            “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.” —Herbert Spencer

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                            • #29
                              It looks awesome I been watching this While I finish the stripper up that I stared. I'd like to try something like that on one of my 12 footers.

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                              • #30
                                Man! You are a brave soul. Now I'm eyeing my gel-coated Bell Morningstar and thinking about carbon fiber...57lbs is getting too heavy.

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