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Meaning of 'Adirondack'

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  • #16
    From what I read in the book, Johnson of the Mohawks, the Iroquois lost their power from making poor alliance choices. First they allied with the English instead of the French in the seven years war. The British were in it for exploiting and colonizing Iroquois land, where on the other hand the French were mainly interested in exploiting the resources, and not colonizing. So native Americans would probably been better served if the French had won.

    Then came the American Revolution, I’m pretty sure all of the Iroquois federation except for the Oneida’s, sided with the British. Again another bad choice for most of the Iroquois.
    Another historic fact of the battle of Oriskany, it was the first time in many decades that Iroquois shed Iroquois blood. There were Oneida warriors with Gen Herkimer and Mohawks with the Torries . Because the Oneida’s were allied with the victors, today they are the riches tribe of the Iroquois nation. Made possible by their land claim treaty , Washington granting them all lands west of Fort Stanwix to be forever Oneida Lands, and the Turning Stone Casino.

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    • #17
      Very cool stuff, TH. I haven't read much about Indian history during and after the revolution. I have a book on Joseph Brant that I'll get to eventually.

      To explain that theory about losing warfare abilities: I think the book Mohawk Baronet posed it as a more macro explanation for the decline of the Iroquois, to explain how their power and numbers declined over several generations and put them in increasingly exploitative positions by the Europeans.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SacandagaSchout View Post
        Like European nations of that era, American Indian nations were constantly rising and falling, their borders constantly changing.

        Throughout the 17th and 18th Century, The Iroquoian Five/Six Nations Confederacy, led by the strongest and most populous tribe, the Mohawk, were in a perpetual battle with the Algonquin-speaking tribes of the St. Lawrence Valley. Most of that fighting took place in the Champlain Valley, the main artery connecting the two nations' territories. One of the first things Champlain did in the New World was join the Algonquin in a battle against the Mohawk on the shore of his namesake lake.

        From the time of European contact through the American Revolution, the Mohawk seemed to have dominated nearly the entire northeast, with near-constant raiding of Algonquin and French settlements. I've never seen it explicitly stated, but I would guess the Mohawk dominated the entire Adirondack Park at their height of power. I.e., if you were a stranger traveling through any given point within the blue line, you would be better off knowing how to speak Mohawk than Algonquin. (The Mohawk were infamous at that time and place for torturing their prisoners to death).

        The Adirondacks were not as desirable as the surrounding low-lying territories, but they still had their use. Not only were borders constantly in flux, but the environment itself, and consequently the areas that were put to use, were in flux. I haven't read much on pre-European North American Indians, but from the little I know, I believe the five nations originally came from elsewhere on the continent. Likewise, the five nations became the six nations by adopting the Tuscarora people as they fled North Carolina in the early 18th Century.

        As the five nations settled in New York and farmed and hunted the land, they began to deplete the resources, in particular wild game. Consequently, they needed to start moving further and further into the mountain wilderness to find deer. (The Iroquois were both an agricultural and hunter society; the women planted while the men hunted and fished; the English tried to turn them entirely into a planting society, which some historians credit for their loss of power, having lost their warfare skills when they lost their hunting tradition). This explains why a 17th or 18th Century English map designates the Adirondacks "deer hunting country," despite the fact that today's valleys and farmland have way higher densities than the Adirondacks and other inhospitable mountain environments.


        Sources:

        - Mohawk Baronet, by James Thomas Flexner
        - Voyages of Samuel De Champlain, 1604-1618 (Champlain's journals)
        - In Mohawk Country: Early Narratives about a Native People, ed. by Dean Snow, et al.
        - Island at the Center of the World, by Russell Shorto
        - A Description of New Netherland, by Adriaen van der Donck
        - A Journey into Mohawk and Oneida Country, 1634-1635: The Journal of Harmen Meyndertz van den Bogaert, ed. by Charles T. Gehring et al.
        Great post and thanks for the sources cited ; weren’t the Iroquois originally an offshoot of the Algonquin ? I thought their language was considered to be Algonquin derived
        "Be patient and calm - for no one can catch fish in anger."
        ~Herbert Hoover

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        • #19
          I believe the population of the Senecas was larger than the Mohawks in the 1700s.

          Nice responses everyone. Thanks. I hope they continue.

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          • #20
            Although the Iroquois did slash and burn, the amount of land they cleared is no where what is now open pasture in NY currently.

            Just look at the satellite photos and you can see exactly how densely forested most portions of the state are. Currently we only have the Adirondacks, Tug Hill, Catskills, Bristol Hills, some of central NY and the southern tier near Alleghany that are densely forested. The rest is a mix of cleared agricultural land and woodland. If we were to look at an aerial map during Iroquois times, the spots of mixed land would be much smaller.

            My whole point on this is, mixed land generally supports more deer than dense forest due to resources. The Iroquois probably easily extinguished their closest deer populations that would have threatened their corn crop and had to push into the heavily forested "wilderness" areas to hunt where the deer population per acre would be even lower, and therefor hunting more difficult.

            The Finger Lakes provided a natural highway for them though and they had outpost up and down the lakes, although most permanent settlements were north where the farm land was.

            The Adirondacks have these highways as well but the lakes are smaller and have long carries to get in between bodies of water that would have been harder to clear than those down south where the forest is less mixed Boreal and more temperate hardwood forest type. In short, I think the Finger Lakes region, which is where most of the 5 nations population was located (not just the Mohawk tribe) had much greater access to more wilderness lands and much easier terrain to deal with.

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            • #21
              Northcountryman--I believe they are different language families, perhaps with a common ancestor, sort of like Romance languages and Germanic languages both being descended from a common Indo-European ancestor language. Maybe you're thinking of the word "Mohawk" itself being from the Mohican (Algonquin) word for that tribe, whereas the Mohawk call themselves "Kanienʼkehá꞉ka" (copy-pasted from Wikipedia so I don't know if that's accurate spelling or punctuation).

              Woodly, you may be right that the Seneca had a larger population. Which is interesting because I believe the Mohawk had an outsized role in the five nations (I may be wrong, it’s been a little while since I’ve read on the subject), with the most military muscle and the most influence on confederacy decisionmaking. Another Euro-centric analogy but it might be like the relationship of the United States to the rest of the allies in World War 2: nominally equal but practically more influential.

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              • #22
                Yes, according to Sir William Johnson, the head of all Native American affairs in North America, for the King of England, and who was also a adopted Sachem in the Mohawk tribe. The Seneca and the Mohawks were the dominant tribes, the Onondaga’s were the keepers of the council fire, and the Oneidas and Cayuga’s were considered the little brothers.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by SacandagaSchout View Post
                  Northcountryman--I believe they are different language families, perhaps with a common ancestor, sort of like Romance languages and Germanic languages both being descended from a common Indo-European ancestor language. Maybe you're thinking of the word "Mohawk" itself being from the Mohican (Algonquin) word for that tribe, whereas the Mohawk call themselves "Kanienʼkehá꞉ka" (copy-pasted from Wikipedia so I don't know if that's accurate spelling or punctuation).

                  Woodly, you may be right that the Seneca had a larger population. Which is interesting because I believe the Mohawk had an outsized role in the five nations (I may be wrong, it’s been a little while since I’ve read on the subject), with the most military muscle and the most influence on confederacy decisionmaking. Another Euro-centric analogy but it might be like the relationship of the United States to the rest of the allies in World War 2: nominally equal but practically more influential.
                  One thing with the Mohawk is they took the initial brunt of white men coming from the east and for many reasons suffered the worst for it.

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                  • #24
                    Hawk could help with this subject. Too bad he's been gone for a while..... must be busy.

                    Here's a good place go to talk about the history of the area:

                    They're very well informed and willing to discuss the subjects in this thread.

                    Keep in mind that as far as native populations are concerned, the entire indigenous populations of North, Central and South America was decimated by European disease. And it continued for several hundred years after the arrival of the Spanish.
                    Much like the current virus will quite likely continue to be a threat to the worlds population for hundreds of years from now.

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                    • #25
                      Actually the Mohawk were known to eat bark too. Or maybe they just barked at the moon. Seneca's too. The bark of sassafras made good medicinal tea. Been there done that. !st Nations used bark for different ailments.
                      Last edited by Schultzz; 08-25-2020, 09:20 AM.
                      Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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                      • #26
                        I just stumbled on this thread. Regarding the origin and meaning of "Adirondack," there is no conclusive answer. Historians differ on this, even if it was a derisive term. If you are interested in an in-depth (and, IMHO, most thorough) discussion of this topic, see:

                        "Adirondack: Of Indians and Mountains, 1535-1838" (2007) by Stephen B. Sulavik
                        Better than sitting at home in a beanbag, eating Cheetos, and watching infomercials

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                        • #27
                          The name "Iroquois " ("black snake", or "killer people") of was a derogatory name used by enemies ( Algonquins and Heurons) of the Haudenosaunee, which means "People of the Longhouse" or "They Are Building a Long House". Mohawks were the keepers of the eastern door, Senecas keepers of the western door. The entire corridor a big long house. Parts & concepts of their laws made it into our constitution.

                          Haudenosaunee=
                          Hoo-De-Nah-SHOW-neee


                          Interesting:
                          Season 2 of Native America is a groundbreaking portrait of contemporary Indian Country. Building on the success of the first season, this four-part Native…

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                          • #28
                            So youre saying that the Iroquois never referred to themselves as ""Iroquois" then? That was sort of a pejorative label ascribed to them by neighboring enemy tribes? Theire official name for themselves then was Haudenosaunee??

                            Great post!! thanks for sharing
                            "Be patient and calm - for no one can catch fish in anger."
                            ~Herbert Hoover

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