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Old 07-31-2020, 06:59 PM   #21
montcalm
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I think that’s pretty well said. I know it’s easy to complain about the DEC but I think they do a pretty darn good job considering the diverse nature of the Adirondacks. What other states do a better job of managing their wilderness areas in people’s opinion? And how do they do better than our state?
They all have the same problems.

Mostly poop, litter and erosion. Invasive species are problems everywhere.


To think that any of these lands are pristine is absolutely crazy. There are VERY few undisturbed areas in the park, and most of them the state owns and most of them so remote, and trailess that no one goes there.

To think that a few dots on the map of litter that you can see somehow negates the tons that are buried under the forest and that somehow means the public is not fit to use the land is the most ridiculous argument I've heard. To think many of these same people drive Ford/Chevy/Chrysler products which contributed to more sterilized lakes in the Adirondacks than all other human interactions combined. To think that a few pieces of litter by careless individuals means that we should shut the entire lot down and give it to the rich from foreign countries is the most backwards thinking I've ever read.

To disregard the fact that ecologically, the Adirondacks are probably the best they have been in the last 100-120 years to point out ticky tack things like trail erosion, sapling cutting and illegal campfires is really not seeing the forest from the trees.

As long as humans use the lands, there will be impacts. The fact is the recreation we do today is so much less impact than logging, mining and tanning had in the past. Some lakes are so poisoned from that era they will NEVER recover. They MIGHT if we have another ice age, but even that's not certain. People camping and fishing didn't do this. The people of the generation who owned great camps did this. Don't forget that. EVER.

If you want to make a difference go carry an empty pack and clean up some lean tos. Build some more sustainable trails. Build some latrines. Help relocate campsites. It won't "save" the Adirondacks. It doesn't need saving, but it will make it a nicer experience for everyone else.

Last edited by montcalm; 07-31-2020 at 09:48 PM..
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Old 08-01-2020, 12:34 AM   #22
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I hope you find peace in Florida and enjoy yourself there. Best of luck.
Thanks! Actually, I'm perfectly at peace here in the Adirondacks. I'm retired, I live in the mountains, I've finished the NP and two rounds of the 46, so I don't really have any "list hiking" to do. I just go where I want, mostly bushwhacking with map and compass.

My energy for these land management issues is not for myself, but for newcomers, and for our local economy.

Right now, skiing and ice climbing are big winter pursuits for us. But my wife and I can see a time in the future when we will be old enough that we will not want to manage being here all winter. So when that time comes, it's probably Florida, only because the family is there. I don't really like Florida (I lived there for a few years in the 70s) but it's warm, and at some point, that will become a priority.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:28 AM   #23
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Thanks! Actually, I'm perfectly at peace here in the Adirondacks. I'm retired, I live in the mountains, I've finished the NP and two rounds of the 46, so I don't really have any "list hiking" to do. I just go where I want, mostly bushwhacking with map and compass.

My energy for these land management issues is not for myself, but for newcomers, and for our local economy.

Right now, skiing and ice climbing are big winter pursuits for us. But my wife and I can see a time in the future when we will be old enough that we will not want to manage being here all winter. So when that time comes, it's probably Florida, only because the family is there. I don't really like Florida (I lived there for a few years in the 70s) but it's warm, and at some point, that will become a priority.

So umm do you bushwhack, ski and climb on Jack Ma's land, or on the forest preserve?

It's really odd to me so many people on this forum voice this opinion, like you do, but then don't think twice about using the what the state has offered you.

And if you (partially) own it, then you should take responsibility and get out there and help correct the issues you don't like instead of blindly blaming the DEC and the Governor. That whole attitude seems pretty myopic.
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Old 08-01-2020, 11:30 AM   #24
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On the Forest Preserve. There's plenty of it. And in bushwhacking, you don't usually run into the damage that you see in the heavily promoted trailed areas.

And believe me, I greatly value what we have here. I do a lot of trail maintenance, as well, and work with L2R, and do other work with the DEC. And I advocate for this area with my government representatives. So I think you are mis-characterizing me.

I think you have the wrong impression. I don't reach my conclusions "blindly." I reach these conclusions based on what I see as a local, who works hard to try to make the place better. And a lot of folks here recognize that Albany needs to do a better job, instead of blindly trusting the governor.
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Old 08-01-2020, 12:39 PM   #25
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On the Forest Preserve. There's plenty of it. And in bushwhacking, you don't usually run into the damage that you see in the heavily promoted trailed areas.

And believe me, I greatly value what we have here. I do a lot of trail maintenance, as well, and work with L2R, and do other work with the DEC. And I advocate for this area with my government representatives. So I think you are mis-characterizing me.

I think you have the wrong impression. I don't reach my conclusions "blindly." I reach these conclusions based on what I see as a local, who works hard to try to make the place better. And a lot of folks here recognize that Albany needs to do a better job, instead of blindly trusting the governor.

Your first post was VERY myopic - "MY MONEY being spent to turn it into a mud pit". Kind of severe, don't ya think? Sounds like Fox News to me.

Your opinion of how much forest preserve is too much or too little has little meaning in this context. You support privatization and foreigners buying lands that do not belong to us, never did, but lands we claimed and took. I support the lands being free and open to the public, however that may happen. In reality we only borrow, and if it comes down to trusting septuagenarian white men, I think we've seen that usually doesn't lead us down a good road for conservation... they've had their chance throughout the ages and ruined it good.

So again, you admit that any damage that occurs is limited to the less than 1%, by area, of the forest preserve that is trail, campsite or other medium to high usage area. So the other 99% is preserved as well as it can be.

The DEC, for whatever their faults may be, employ people that know more about forest management and ecology than you are could ever hope to. They extensively catalog and inventory all use through he UMPs, and that information is made public. They are extremely conservative in allowing new development in any sense, sometimes to a fault, but their interest is in conservation, and not recreation.

Part of being a part of public land ownership is assuming stewardship yourself, and being a good steward, because not all will. Those that aren't should be publicly shamed and punished, in my opinion, but that isn't always the case. Our government is very lenient and focuses on education instead of severe punishment. This works and is proper for some things, but for stuff that is common sense i.e. littering, destruction of public property, etc, it shouldn't be, IMO... but I play the cards I'm dealt in this sense and see far more good from the forest preserve than detriment.
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Old 08-01-2020, 01:31 PM   #26
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Thanks! Actually, I'm perfectly at peace here in the Adirondacks. I'm retired, I live in the mountains, I've finished the NP and two rounds of the 46, so I don't really have any "list hiking" to do. I just go where I want, mostly bushwhacking with map and compass.

My energy for these land management issues is not for myself, but for newcomers, and for our local economy.

Right now, skiing and ice climbing are big winter pursuits for us. But my wife and I can see a time in the future when we will be old enough that we will not want to manage being here all winter. So when that time comes, it's probably Florida, only because the family is there. I don't really like Florida (I lived there for a few years in the 70s) but it's warm, and at some point, that will become a priority.
Sounds great. I am two years away from retirement and looking forward to having more time to spend in the ADKs. We had thought about moving south after retirement but for a variety of reasons got turned off to it. Our plan is to stay put in NY but probably downsize and/or relocate within the state at some point.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:24 AM   #27
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Wht couldn't a private entity buy it and open some of the land up for quality outdoor recreation? Pay to play for day use and camping. Also, pay a deposit - if you don't follow their rules, like leaving campsites full of trash, you don't get the deposit back. Also, the owner could get fees from non-residents. That doesn't happen on state owned lands. The owners could regulate the number of users on a given day, which would help keep impacts to a minimum. All improvements would have to be reviewed and approved by the APA, so environmental impact should be kept to an acceptable level. There would be no tax burden for NYS residents. The town wouldn't lose those property taxes. There would be sales tax and property tax revenue. Seems like it's doable if the owner was inclined for that type of venture
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:58 AM   #28
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I like it.
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:57 AM   #29
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Wht couldn't a private entity buy it and open some of the land up for quality outdoor recreation? Pay to play for day use and camping. Also, pay a deposit - if you don't follow their rules, like leaving campsites full of trash, you don't get the deposit back. Also, the owner could get fees from non-residents. That doesn't happen on state owned lands. The owners could regulate the number of users on a given day, which would help keep impacts to a minimum. All improvements would have to be reviewed and approved by the APA, so environmental impact should be kept to an acceptable level. There would be no tax burden for NYS residents. The town wouldn't lose those property taxes. There would be sales tax and property tax revenue. Seems like it's doable if the owner was inclined for that type of venture
Sounds like a great idea, running some sort of not for profit that works with land management In mind. I wonder about operating costs and how much usage fees would entail. Insurance is the first that comes to mind, but then there are many other functions the DEC performs that would become part of an operating budget.
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:01 PM   #30
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My guess is that folks who have 180 million on hand would probably rather keep the riff-raff out than try to manage them (or should I say us) and promote good behavior. I'll be interested to see what happens to the tract, I can see some validity in the arguments of both sides of the public vs private debate. I do think that in general more state ownership is a good thing, and that it would be really good to have more DEC personnel or volunteers keeping an eye on and taking care of things. I hope to become one of those volunteers after I move to the area in a year or two.
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:26 PM   #31
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A forestry program would be awesome. There should be plenty of room on 36K acres for that and many other sustainable land use and outdoor recreation programs. A blend of conservation and preservation would be ideal. IMO of course
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:42 PM   #32
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The BREIA trail system is a nice example of a wealthy benefactor setting up and maintaining multiple tracts of land for the general population to use as well as foster outdoor education experiences for our youth.

http://www.breiax-countryski.org/about/
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Old 08-02-2020, 02:09 PM   #33
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BREI is not just about the groomed trails and hut system, which are totally free for all of every exprerience level to use by the way. The original benefactor also paid for and established the very nice facility the local SAR team continues to use, and BREIA provides funding and equipment for free X-C ski rental each year on the trails from the SAR building. Each week during the winter there is a ski program for school kids from many area schools, and a summer kayaking education class during the summer. There is also a farm with exotics to see, and a bike trail system as well.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:38 PM   #34
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While I love BREIA and their facilities, they are not immune to issues with the public. One of their huts was burned down a few years back. They rebuilt, but if that was on state land John Q. Public would be pointing the finger at someone.

Also, and in this instance, the hope is that this tract would be added to the existing wilderness to create a much larger wilderness, or at least that's been the goal for many years. BREIA is not constrained to such things as wilderness areas are and they groom trails with snowmobiles, so it's not motorless.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:53 PM   #35
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BREIA is not constrained to such things as wilderness areas are and they groom trails with snowmobiles, so it's not motorless.
While I am definitely not pro snowmobile or ATV by any means, sometimes you have to just grit your teeth and concede a little to get a specialized job done with the tool best suited and necessary for the job at hand. I am not above riding on a DEC UTV at the direction of a Ranger to get into a SAR incident scene either. As noted, BREIA trails are not in any designated wilderness areas, and the XC trails are beautifully maintained and track groomed.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:56 PM   #36
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While I am definitely not pro snowmobile or ATV by any means, sometimes you have to just grit your teeth and concede a little to get a specialized job done with the tool best suited and necessary for the job at hand. I am not above riding on a DEC UTV at the direction of a Ranger to get into a SAR incident scene either. BREIA trails are not in any designated wilderness areas, and the XC trails are beautifully maintained and track groomed.
No, but what I'm saying is, you are most certainly going to give up that protection with a private individual over a state wilderness.

This property is a prime wilderness paddling connector, as I'm sure you know.

I'm trying not to let my personal want for more long distance canoe trips in the park cloud my vision but I can't not mention it.
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:01 PM   #37
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my personal want for more long distance canoe trips in the park

Have you done the Cannonball-90 yet?
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:17 PM   #38
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I have not, but I don't want to drift the thread too much. And perhaps that's a little extreme for my paddling pace LOL.
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:21 PM   #39
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Back to the idea of a private owner allowing public access:

Yes, it's been done before and it's actually awesome i.e. BREIA. But I'm not sure BREIA makes any money except through grants, so I'm really not sure how long it'll be around. There's no information in that regard - we don't know who owns it, that's private information and not disclosed. We can see the board members, but I'm not sure they're able to discuss that. Anyway, point being, it could be sold or closed at any time.

I also don't think that you could even break even with that kind of thing as a private owner. Many of these types will not want to simply donate their time and money into running a business that they have to dump money into every year, and it certainly won't be sustainable.
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:27 AM   #40
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It's very doable if it could become a multi-use area. The owners would have to be forward thinking and flexible with their plans. The agencies would need to be the same in their review during the approval and permitting process. The public would also have to learn to compromise and be willing to give and take. There would be no room for hard liners from any side. A multi-use area could be like a microcosm of the Adirondack Park..a blend of features that are attractive to a variety of users. Imo, smart planning, with a mix of preservation, conservation, and low impact development components would be pretty cool
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