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Old 10-20-2021, 09:14 AM   #21
montcalm
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Lifts were a terrible idea anyway... Get back to the roots!
Emotional response.

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By the time you invest in a proper pair of skis you're gonna be out more than you would pay for a season pass, rentals and lessons at most hills in NY.
Rational response.

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Whoa there…
He never said it was free, just the cost for that skiing was $0. We all know you have to have some equipment.
There's no right or wrong answer, just various ways to look at the same things. I've looked at it from a number of different angles and I know what I prefer but to some it may seem a waste of time.
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Old 10-20-2021, 01:30 PM   #22
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TGR has a new film that talks about this issue directly

https://tgrtv.tetongravity.com/apps/...62037/32816199

https://tgrtv.tetongravity.com/apps/...62037/32816199
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Old 10-20-2021, 06:58 PM   #23
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LOL - almost every single "mom and pop's" business in America has been engulfed by corporate structure, and I'm supposed to feel bad about the ski industry?

The ski hill was a losing bet from the start. Let's deforest mountains, pollute the watershed and waste an obscene amount of energy making what nature can't consistently provide. Then we'll develop the surrounding areas with hotels and expensive condos so we can sell the whole mess to white people with way too much money and time on their hands.

Next lets factor in increasing temperatures in the east and droughts in the west, and we have the perfect recipe for failure.
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Old 10-21-2021, 09:39 PM   #24
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Thanks for that, I've always enjoyed the independent areas so much more than the homogonized big mountains.
My tastes still run the same, Plattekill, Mad River Glen, Snow Ridge, McCauley, Royal, Oak, there are still plenty of ski areas with unique character and reasonable prices.

Sadly, many of the little places did go under, most of them due to lack of snow. Did you know that New York state had the most ski areas of any state in the US back in the 70's and 80's?
I first skied at Eagle Mountain (Fox Hollow, Old Homestead) in Pattersonville, which was down the hill from my house. Learned to ski bumps at Hickory and Magic. Had a ball at Snow Valley, Rock Candy, Mt Raimer, kids had so much fun at Brodie...I could go on and on.

Let's all keep our fingers crossed for a good snow year! Maybe I'll see some of you on the trails or in the trees...
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:22 AM   #25
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Not being a downhill skier, ever, but am very active in SAR. In Feb 2018 I was called to a missing persons incident on Whiteface Mtn. Lucky me, searchers were giiven lift passes so we could get to the wooded ravines for the search. On snowshoes of course. Something I never complentated ever having. Spent a couple of days there, only to learn later that the missing Canadiian skier had mysteriously turned up in Sacramento CA without any real explanation ever coming out how he got there. So my Whiteface ski lift pass sits next to my1980 Olympic grounds and event entry pass that I received as my brother's ground crew when he flew the official Olympic hot air balloon.
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Old 10-22-2021, 09:57 AM   #26
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Rumor has it that Hickory may reopen this winter...
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:33 AM   #27
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I've looked at some data for the past 40 years in the southern Adirondacks. On average, the amount of snow has only decreased around 10" per season. The length of the season (number of ski days) has decreased by less than a week.

That's not enough to make a huge difference.

What has changed? Variability in snow - many more really low snow years in past 20 years. Many more short seasons. They were then balanced out by very good seasons, hence the average not changing much, but that variability is enough to really screw a business when a customer shells out their hard earned cash and actually wants to be able to ski when they have free time, not just when it snows. Hence the cause of the industry to move to snowmaking, which is very energy and labor intensive, thus much more costly.

I think the real issue though is the skier. The customer. The big ski areas are simply giving people what they want in way that they can make a profit. A single swipe and a rope tow with no snow making down a couple hundred feet of vert isn't a very big impact on the environment and is pretty easy to keep going for little money, but beyond a beginner skier, it's simply just going to be boring. The same thing happens at any small ski resort. Slow lifts mean longer lines, and less time skiing. Fast lifts mean more skier traffic and more acreage needed to keep traffic down and maintain decent trail conditions.

If you are content to hike and ski down a mountain, even if you are super fit, there's no way in hell are you going to ski it off. But racing up on a lift changes the picture. More skiers changes the picture.

It's funny to me that enthusiasts of a sport are always so eager to grow their sport until their sport grows to the point at which it becomes a soulless mega-industry. But that's what you asked for. It happens with everything. Why do you think we have all the issues in the HPW? It's popularity and promotion. It's great that people find hobbies that they love, but the fact of the matter is everything has a finite holding limit and technology can only do so much to improve the experience for the masses. There will always be tradeoffs and unintended consequences.

Last edited by montcalm; 10-22-2021 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 10-22-2021, 11:09 AM   #28
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Honestly if you want to get the most out of the ski industry, you should support our socialist ski hills i.e. Whiteface, Gore and Belleayre. We, the taxpayers, both own and subsidize these hills and they almost never make a profit.

This seems to bother a lot of people and they seem to think their performance is substandard, but the fact of the matter is we are paying for them, and they exist, so you might as well utilize that resource.
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Old 10-22-2021, 11:53 AM   #29
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Thanks for that, I've always enjoyed the independent areas so much more than the homogonized big mountains.
My tastes still run the same, Plattekill, Mad River Glen, Snow Ridge, McCauley, Royal, Oak, there are still plenty of ski areas with unique character and reasonable prices.

Sadly, many of the little places did go under, most of them due to lack of snow. Did you know that New York state had the most ski areas of any state in the US back in the 70's and 80's?
I first skied at Eagle Mountain (Fox Hollow, Old Homestead) in Pattersonville, which was down the hill from my house. Learned to ski bumps at Hickory and Magic. Had a ball at Snow Valley, Rock Candy, Mt Raimer, kids had so much fun at Brodie...I could go on and on.

Let's all keep our fingers crossed for a good snow year! Maybe I'll see some of you on the trails or in the trees...
In my area I learned about a former ski area that has been closed awhile now. It's on the Ukaranean Rd. in the town of Salisbury aka the 429 area. People here would know as around the Ferris Lake Wild Forest area I have been driving by it lately to see it, but it's private property now. I can still see the ski trails. There used to be Shoemaker Mountain in Little Falls.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:07 PM   #30
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I have long been a proponent of minimal grooming and no snowmaking.
Groom one or two trails for the neophytes, and leave the rest up to mother nature and "human groomin".
Breakable crust? Bust it up by skiing it. Deep powder? Rejoice. Mashed potatos? Spend some time preseason to strengthen those quads. Unbreakable crust? Well....sharpen those edges and proceed carefully.
If more ski areas had such a policy, it would force more skiers to become proficient in more challenging conditions, and more skiers would appreciate trails (if there are any) in a more natural condition.
The closest I've seen of this attitude was Hickory, truly lift served skiing at its best.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:52 PM   #31
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I have long been a proponent of minimal grooming and no snowmaking.
Groom one or two trails for the neophytes, and leave the rest up to mother nature and "human groomin".
Breakable crust? Bust it up by skiing it. Deep powder? Rejoice. Mashed potatos? Spend some time preseason to strengthen those quads. Unbreakable crust? Well....sharpen those edges and proceed carefully.
If more ski areas had such a policy, it would force more skiers to become proficient in more challenging conditions, and more skiers would appreciate trails (if there are any) in a more natural condition.
The closest I've seen of this attitude was Hickory, truly lift served skiing at its best.
Well that's BC skiin'.

It'd be nice if towns or the state could afford some of the old ski areas and allow them to be developed and run on a volunteer basis. Let them build mountain bike trails for the summer too - year round use.

The lifts then become the sticky point, I believe. I'm perfectly fine with removing them and letting skiers decide how the trails should reforest, if at all.

This is probably my favorite model (in theory) of a private-run ski area.

https://whitegrass.com/

Never been there (would love to go) but the little that I do know they do much like I stated above, but they are private owned. WTBS they do rely on a lot of volunteer labor and they do have a lot of MTB trails for summer. They DO NOT have any lifts. They DO harvest snow, using snow fences and move it and groom areas to maximize their cover.

Pisgah in SL is another example that works, and has a lift (T-bar), but they perhaps suffer from a lack of terrain.
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Old 10-22-2021, 02:37 PM   #32
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Deep powder? Rejoice.
Really? These are photos of my father's hunting camp that I have inherited. I backcountry ski the two miles in to it as often as three times each winter, depending on recent snowfalls, to shovel off the roof to save it from collapsing. The depth of the snow on the roof is usually all deep powder, which is the same on the ground that I ski through on the way in. Sinking in the stuff up to my waist, whether I am wearing skis or snowshoes is not anything to rejoice about. A rare hard surface crust is what I rejoice over, but that probaly means a lot more weight has accumulated on the roof. Multiple layers of ice mean a lot more work to get through it on the roof with a shovel.
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Old 10-22-2021, 02:43 PM   #33
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to shovel off the roof to save it from collapsing.
Tear that off and build one with some pitch. For all the effort you spend shoveling you could surely put the work into a smarter solution.
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Old 10-22-2021, 02:50 PM   #34
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Tear that off and build one with some pitch. For all the effort you spend shoveling you could surely put the work into a smarter solution.
I would have no faith in the effort and expense in that option. I have another newer larger two story place elsewhere with considerably more pitch and a brand new smooth metal roof. Two winters ago snow slid off easily on its own. Last winter, a couple of ice layers stuck firmly and had no intention of sliding off until the spring melt. But the roof was built strong enough to endure the weight so I did not have to shovel, which would have been inpossible on that pitch anyway.
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Old 10-22-2021, 02:52 PM   #35
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I would have no faith in the effort and expense in that option. I have another newer larger two story place elsewhere with considerably more pitch and a brand new smooth metal roof. Two winters ago snow slid off easily on its own. Last winter, a couple of ice layers stuck firmly and had no intention of sliding off until the spring melt. But the roof was built strong enough to endure the weight so I did not have to shovel, which would have been inpossible on that pitch anyway.
Maybe time to re-wild it?

I've seen where people do this instead of letting old structures collapse, and become unsafe, eyesores. But rather they turn the site back into was prior to building. Seems ethical to me.
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Old 10-22-2021, 03:20 PM   #36
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Prior to my father building it, which makes it very sentimental, the small plot of land was owned by my Uncle, my mother's brother, a well known hermit and character in the area, "Running George" was his name with a backcountry road in the area now named after him. My mother was one of 17 children when they farmed on adjacent nearby land. My father grew up on the next adjacent land (he being one of 11 children) that is now owned by his brother. If it collapses some day I will clean up the mess, but for now there are too many personal memories there to let go. I still use it as a staging camp for recalling hikes and hunts from long ago with Dad.
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Old 10-22-2021, 03:58 PM   #37
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McCauley was mentioned and as far as a small private area they have a good thing going. I have read they are subsidized by the town but I can’t find confirmation of that anywhere so maybe it’s incorrect.

What they have allowed AFTA to do there in the past few years is a big move. I rode around all the trails that were there before they came in and it was wasn’t great. A lot of double track xc trails and a few quirky single tracks. Now they have a really great system there that have been properly built.

If the subsidy thing is real it’s a pretty cool mix of private, not-for-profit and public funding to make a really nice community recreation area for all abilities.
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Old 10-23-2021, 12:23 PM   #38
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Apparently McCauley is owned by the Town of Webb - I thought it was some partnership of private and public, but from what I can find it is entirely public owned, as I believe is Maple ridge between the school and McCauley where a number of the bike trails are and the old school ski hill.

https://nyskiblog.com/directory/ny-s...uley-mountain/
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