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Old 11-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #1
gorpot
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Chub Pond lean-to #1 hike and question

A friend and I hiked into Chub Pond, and went to both lean-tos. I was surprised when we got to Lean-to # 1, on how it was set up. I will try to post some pictures for those of you who have never seen it. First of all it is probably about a 1000 yds from the pond. There was a deck on the front of it. Very nice canvas covering the opening to the lean-to with a heavy duty zipper door to get in the lean-to. Inside it was set up with bunk beds around the perimeter to sleep 6. There was a wood stove for heat, and a regular gas stove to cook on. Many shelves to store all your supplies on. Had two sky lights in the room with crank handles, just like you would have in your house. Outside there was a sink with an old time water pump, to pump water out of the ground, which worked fine. A 15' high flag pole with an US flag flying. There was a permit inside from the DEC, letting a hunting party use the lean-to for the whole hunting season from sometime in Oct. to Dec 8th. Why would they give a camping permit for that length of time, thus keeping anyone else from using the lean-to for two months? How come the DEC would allow someone to cut into the lean-to roof to install skylights, dig a well, install a water pump, put a deck on the lean-to, put up a flag pole, install a wood stove, with a pipe through the ceiling, and put a gas
stove in it? I will try and post some pictures, but I have never tried to post pictures on this site so we will see what happens. Wouldn't let me add pictures, it said some security token was missing, after I tried to upload 6 pictures. I don't know why so many web sites always makes it so hard to add pictures, at least for us computer challenged people.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:23 AM   #2
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A call to a DEC Ranger should clear it up.

Try:
Chad Richardson: 315-542-4554
Bob Coscomb: 315-942-6949, Cell: 315-235-5374
Greg Hoag: 315-566-9400
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:57 AM   #3
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I think that lean-to was constructed that way many years ago by a private group (with DEC permission). When I was there last spring there was no canvas so that must be added for hunting season. The other lean-to is in a much nicer spot.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:10 AM   #4
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Quote:
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I think that lean-to was constructed that way many years ago by a private group (with DEC permission). When I was there last spring there was no canvas so that must be added for hunting season. The other lean-to is in a much nicer spot.
Yes it was. This has been covered many times on here but I fail to find the threads in a search.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:32 PM   #5
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I think that lean-to was constructed that way many years ago by a private group (with DEC permission). When I was there last spring there was no canvas so that must be added for hunting season. The other lean-to is in a much nicer spot.
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:51 PM   #6
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I was there a couple of months ago.
I believe some hunters use it because their gear was stored in barrels in the woods.
Seems like a lot of the lean to's have been "adopted" by someone.
I try to avoid them.
Chubb #2 is a great spot though!
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:11 AM   #7
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Are you saying this permit gave them exclusive use of the lean-to for 6 weeks? If that's possible I'm getting one for the lean-to on Lake Lila for the month of August.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:45 AM   #8
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No it does not. Being on state land it has to follow the same rules as any other.

From the DEC website:

Quote:
Temporary camping in one location for four nights or more is prohibited except under permit. Except during the big game hunting season, no temporary camping permit will be issued to any person for a period in excess of 14 consecutive nights. No temporary camping permit may be renewed, or a new permit issued, to the same person for the same location in the same calendar year
If in doubt, contact the ranger and have them handle it.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:53 AM   #9
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Your quoted text contradicted your statement. "Except during big game hunting season..."
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:57 AM   #10
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Because I believe the department makes exceptions during that time. Contact a ranger to get the specifics.

It does not contradict my statement because those rules apply for any campsite on state land AFAIK. I stated being on state land must follow the rules and quoted the rule. There may be other restrictions to that rule in areas such as EHPWA but I am not sure.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:06 AM   #11
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During big game season, a ranger can, and often will issue a permit to camp for more than the 14 days. In the original post, it said there was a permit for the entire season posted on the lean to. So yea, I'd say that gives them exclusive rights to the site for that time.

I'm just guessing but the permit is probably issued to the builders of that lean to? Or their descendants? I highly doubt that I could get a permit to stay there for the deer season. One of those "who you. Know" situations.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:19 AM   #12
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That is just speculation. Permits are not hard to get in most cases. For two months, I don't know? But apparently you can get a greater than two week permit during BIG game season. I believe I've seen this case since bear season started where there were lean tos overrun with gear and tents with no one to be found.

Again if you have a question or issue, contact a ranger. You aren't going to resolve anything on here other than reading that an exception exists and that the lean to in question was built that way, and we've already covered that.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:01 PM   #13
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The Plumley family from Camden have been occupying that lean to for many years. Nice bunch of guys. I'm sure it is still them that are the permit holders. I noticed their name in the trail register last fall when I hiked back there.

Although not a lean to, the campsites along the road from McKeever to Wolf Lake Landing on Woodhull Lake, has many semi-permanent hunting structures installed for most of hunting season.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:01 PM   #14
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The DEC Rangers can (and do) issue permits for more than 2 weeks during the big game season. Essentially, it allows the permit holder to maintain a temporary hunting camp. In fact, this is quite common- I would estimate that, based on my personal observations within the Adirondacks, at least several hundred such permits are issued each year. Generally, what happens is a small group will go in on a permit together, spend a weekend setting up camp, and have their weekend retreat for the fall. It's also not unheard of for groups to use horses to haul gear and supplies into the woods for the hunting season.

If you drive the Moose River Plains during the big game season, you'll see quite a few canvas tents and trailer campers set up as hunting camps, all displaying permits in a ziplock bag attached to the outside of the shelter.

Typically, the hiking public has little awareness of these hunting camps for a few reasons. Primarily, hunters prefer to be where the hikers aren't- game can be scarce in areas that are popular and receive high levels of use. Additionally, most groups wait until after Columbus Day to set up their camps; by this time recreational hiking use of the woods has diminished considerably. Also, while groups seeking a permit can request a specific site or spot, the ranger issuing the permit has final discretion about specifically where the camp is set up. In general, permits aren't issued for popular campsites that are likely to receive regular use by the general public even well into hunting season.

This is the first I've ever heard of a permit being issued for a lean-to, though. I'm not even sure that I've ever heard of a permit being issued outside of the hunting season that allows for a group to stay at a lean-to longer than 3 nights. I would have to imagine that yes, this is some sort of exception that is granted to a group associated with the construction of the lean-to. It may also be possible that the permit was granted simply because the lean-to receives little use as it is- the Black River Wild Forest area, despite having some beautiful destinations and campsites, isn't exactly on the radar of the general hiking and backpacking crowd. L'oiseau is right on that point, though, only a call to the DEC would answer this question.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
That is just speculation. Permits are not hard to get in most cases. For two months, I don't know? But apparently you can get a greater than two week permit during BIG game season. I believe I've seen this case since bear season started where there were lean tos overrun with gear and tents with no one to be found.
I wouldn't necessarily say that permits are easy to get. Rangers must (should) operate within the regulation, but they do have a lot of discretion - they don't give out permits just because you ask for any reason. It depends on the permitting history of the area, the land class designation, fragility of the location, why a stay requiring a permit is necessary, and who is asking for the permit (their history, experience, trustworthiness, etc.). The final decision is really quite up to the ranger. Maybe Azimuth can weigh in here on the process in his area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
Again if you have a question or issue, contact a ranger. You aren't going to resolve anything on here other than reading that an exception exists and that the lean to in question was built that way, and we've already covered that.
Absolutely. I earlier posted the names and numbers of three rangers I know, who are all familiar with the Chub Pond area. Call them.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:25 PM   #16
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Not to get into a big thing but getting a permit for an extra night or two in most cases is not hard. They grant them pretty regularly even in very popular areas. I've asked rangers and assistants because I would see people fill out long stays in the registers and I was curious about it.

Two weeks or more? No idea. Probably not as regular as 5 day or 7 days permits.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
Not to get into a big thing but getting a permit for an extra night or two in most cases is not hard. They grant them pretty regularly even in very popular areas. I've asked rangers and assistants because I would see people fill out long stays in the registers and I was curious about it.

Two weeks or more? No idea. Probably not as regular as 5 day or 7 days permits.
An extra night or two, maybe, if it is not a popular highly traveled area. But try to get a permit for more than 9 (in some cases 8) people to camp in a wilderness area, which was commonly allowed not many years ago, it ain't gonna happen now. Otherwise I stand by the ranger's absolute discretion to say yes or no.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:24 PM   #18
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Again I don't want to start a big thing and I think DeathStar has pointed all we need to know beyond contacting that specific ranger but...

While we are complaining... I wish they would make it harder to get permits, especially in wilderness areas. To me it makes it easier for people to cart everything but the kitchen sink back there and hog up prime camp sites for days on end.

But hey, my philosophy is different. I try to take as little as I can comfortably camp with and don't stay at a site more than a night or two unless I'm at a state campground - if I want to basecamp, I pay for a site... it only seems fair to others.
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Old 11-22-2013, 06:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
While we are complaining... I wish they would make it harder to get permits, especially in wilderness areas. To me it makes it easier for people to cart everything but the kitchen sink back there and hog up prime camp sites for days on end.

But hey, my philosophy is different. I try to take as little as I can comfortably camp with and don't stay at a site more than a night or two unless I'm at a state campground - if I want to basecamp, I pay for a site... it only seems fair to others.
In my perfect, ideal world, here is how it would work for wilderness areas:

Maximum permitted overnight group size without a permit would be 6. The maximum permitted overnight group size with a permit would be 10.

In order to secure a permit, you must either:
  1. Have a backpacking guides license, or
  2. Be a camp group operating under the jurisdiction of the department of health

There are several advantages to this. For starters, it would decrease the group size limit for casual visitors to wilderness areas, which would hopefully result in a decreased level of impact upon those areas. It would increase the group size limit for experienced visitors and camp groups to wilderness areas (currently, wilderness areas are limited to 9 per overnight group, soon to be 8, even with a permit), which ideally will have the training to lower their impact despite having a larger group.

This would provide some relief to camp groups, which have taken a bit of a hit ever since the DEC stopped issuing permits for overnight groups larger than 9 in wilderness areas. It's much more economically justifiable to run a group of 8 kids with 2 counselors than it is to run a group of 6 kids with 2 counselors. For non-camp groups, it would provide some security to ensure that they practice minimum-impact skills, as they would run the risk of losing their guides license if they did not abide by the stipulations of the permit.

Note: The above is all based on whimsical thinking as a fun "what if" scenario. I haven't put all that much thought into it, so feel free to respectfully pick it apart and agree/disagree.
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Old 11-22-2013, 07:15 PM   #20
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I agree wholeheartedly.

Those are the only exceptions I could think of, and actually wanted to make that same comment to Wldns (although I would have just said guides or educational groups).
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